Monjuic


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#1 BurtAugust

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 10:23 AM

I feel strongly that we should go by the precedent from last year where there was a simultaneous mass disco, and go back to lap 36 or 37 for the final results.

#2 Bo Bruce

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 10:47 AM

Per the RULES (and with all due respect to Burt, i'm not arguing the point) but i 'thought' what ever happened THEN, was 'cleaned up' with the statement below, AFTER that episode. i don't want to undo what we have, at least not NOW, as we have a rule in place.  But the bottom line is, WHO was affected and how? are we talking simply about the 'dnf'?   then i have no problem considering all that disco'd as still running, but no change in finishing order.  

from the RULES:

major disco=1/2 or more but not 'all' simultaneously disco
result:
at or after 1/2 way=results stand


RULE LOCATION:
left column of MENU... in the RED (RULES)

click there - then to the right, about 1/2 way down, the title bar reads "RACING"

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#3 BurtAugust

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 11:09 AM

Bo can you point me to that rule?

Thanks Bo.

If I understand your ruling, the drivers eliminated by the mass disco will be considered finishers.  Seems like that I an appropriate interpretation of the rules.

Edited by BurtAugust, 21 April 2018 - 04:08 PM.


#4 GrandPrixYannick

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 11:15 AM

So after a one race absence I was hoping to get a good result for the team.
Quite a bummer that all the attempts of the TL to hire a privateer for one race were futile.

Qualified a solid fifth, close to the times of Michael and teammate Tristan.

We both appeared to have a strong start as the three in front seem to went of less quick. Unfortunately in such a rate they were pretty much side-by-side!
So there was pretty much no space to get past so I tried to look around to the possibilities. Eventually I went to the inside of the hairpin behind Tristan.
We both profited from this as we both took the Brabham of Lowery in the process.

In 3rd and 4th we managed to leave the trial behind us at a distance while we tried to follow Roy in his Cooper.
He managed to pull away however, so I stick behind my teammate and followed his tempo.
Though he seemed a bit faster, from my POV he sometimes looked inconsistent and a little clumsy at times. And as the laps went by I noticed Lowery gradually coming closer.
So what to do?

Well, I decided to stick behind Tristan and take the role as a 'guard' so I can check on the opponents behind us, and we also maintain our positions.
There weren't moments where I actually had to prevent an overtake, but it got a little threatening at times. Eventually Lowery fell back so were back in a safe zone.

Then Robert crashed at Rosaleda. Tristan got by him and I thought the possibility was there for me as well to get by.
So I tried to get him just before going into Font del Gat but we were side-by-side. I think I was slightly ahead because I couldn't see him.
Assuming a bit naïvely that he would yield I closed the door a bit on him. And thus we hit. I got spun but recorded no damage.

I lost a few seconds there so I tried to catch up to Robert and Tristan. The former seemed to be unable to get past Tristan.
With an open field I pushed for faster lap times and eventually got back to them again. Only to get a little too eager and overdo it on Puelbo Español. Again no damage.

Chasing the two back, the two collided at Guardia Urbana and I couldn't avoid Robert, causing him to barrel roll.
Unfortunately Robert lost the most due to the incident, as Tristan and I were able to press on. Iestyn got by me in the Eagle, but I managed to take his place back a few laps later.

So now Zero Degrees Racing Team was going for an amazing result. 2nd and 3rd place.
I was cautiously getting ecstatic and decided to stay behind Tristan and play it safe.

And with three laps to drive, the game froze. Much to my dismay.

Counting the number of retirements, I come out at 8 drivers (Me, Tristan, Robert, Enrique, Iestyn (lead lap), Kovacs (+1), Burt (+2), and Tomy (+3).
Cannot say for certain if this actually to all of them, but this is over 50% of the field (14 starters, not counting DNS).

Personally I'm a proponent of a red flag.
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#5 Gabriele Maruca

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 11:44 AM

As Team Leader of the ZDR Team, after seeing the evidence my teammates provided me, I officially propose on behalf of the whole team, to drop the red flag and count the lap before the disconnection as official standing.

I hope this position is shared by a fair amount of drivers in the league, as 8 out of 15 drivers suffered of disconnections.
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#6 Robert Fleurke

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 12:24 PM

Quali was superb with a PB, beating benchmarks like Theile and Guérout :) Roy did also well with a sub32! ;)

After a mediocre to poor start (also due to my 1st gear for the track) held a tight line, and executed it perfectly to hold on to the lead. Immediately had a little gap, that slowly grew to about 5-6s. I drove well, disciplined, and did enough to increase the gap. But after about 15 laps made a mistake out of T2 and had a slow halfspin facing the armco. Had to let by traffic before recovering, in an awkward way, and lost a lot of time. Tris got by, and Yannick was on the outside, it looks like a huge lag contact. He gave room (judging server replay), and I held the inside tight. On my client replay Yannick warped into my car...

I have a very bad connection on this server to Tristan, and Yannick. Simply couldn't race close with Tris, almost every lap it appearred I ran into his back him warping back into my car. Very confusing and frustrating. At some point Tristan lost control at the 90 degrees left hander and I had nowhere to go, even when I braked. Then Yannick piled into me as well, rolled over, and had to take care recovering. Car was damaged and slow after that, was just trying to get some coins.  Dropped back to P8 letting everyone by when eventually the mass screenfreeze happened.

Was a great event until I made that unforced error. It put me in a difficult position, and finally suffered too much bad luck. Apart from my slow halfspin, I'm happy with the way I drove. Was just unlucky.

Grats to Roy for a well deserved win, and to Michael and Ed for their podiums. Also well done to Alex with a solid run in the BRM. Commiserations to the DNF's, and to all that suffered from the mass screenfreeze. It's a track issue I'm afraid...

Edited by Robert Fleurke, 21 April 2018 - 04:14 PM.


#7 Gabriele Maruca

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 02:43 PM

To the oAo Chairman, Stewards and Teams.

Since the Race Stewards didn't feel to uphold the rules by obliging the Mass Disconnect Rule (since 8 out of 15 disconnected in the same lap), and depriving the ZDR Team of a well-deserved podium earned on the track, with the awarding of way less points and coins suitable to repair the cars and reputing anti-economical for the survival of the team itself to repair said cars and/or rent another car for the events to follow

decides

- to hereby participate to the D2 race in Montjuich with the damaged Ferrari car, in protest of the decision,
- to not abide by the decisions the Stewards may take in reaction to such action,
- to not pay any fine caused by the aforementioned behaviour,
- to do anything in its power to not let any change in regulations pass without its approval by the other teams.

This will have effect immediately and won't be revoked until the rightful standings have been restored.

Sincerely,

- Gabriele.


(TL;DR : IS THIS A FUCKING JOKE, BO?)
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#8 Michkov

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 02:56 PM

Little time to practice and a change of cars during the week meant I maybe didn't get all the practice in I wanted. So arriving was the goal for today.Qualy saw me as the best Honda but I decided the inside of the hairpin was the best place to be on the start. That got me pinned to the rails loosing me 2 spots. Got past Burt quickly after a lap or two. Dag on the other hand required a bit more work. I didn't help myself by running out of talent into T1 loosing 10 seconds in a spin. After getting back on Dags gearbox it took a couple more laps until I could sneak by when slid wide into the penultimate turn.Apart from a spin in the same corner around the midpoint a bit of a lonely race from then on, couldn't match the pace of the guys in front and ran away from the ones behind me. Had a slight misunderstanding when Roy came by as I saw the blue flags too late and thought for half a lap I was racing a Cooper that lost time somewhere.Towards the end I caught Burt again with the P2-5 battle approaching us, just as they went by the whole disco/freeze happened and that's that.

View PostGabriele Maruca, on 21 April 2018 - 11:44 AM, said:

As Team Leader of the ZDR Team, after seeing the evidence my teammates provided me, I officially propose on behalf of the whole team, to drop the red flag and count the lap before the disconnection as official standing.

I hope this position is shared by a fair amount of drivers in the league, as 8 out of 15 drivers suffered of disconnections.

I have to disagree here. We have an established rule for this situation, which clearly states what happens now. I highly dislike changing the rules post race. Feel free to discuss changes where needed but once we start Qualy the rules for that race are fixed as far as I am concerned.
I just wanna race

#9 Gabriele Maruca

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 03:13 PM

Mich, only thing it states is that if more than a half (8 over 15 IS more than a half) drivers do disconnect simultaneously, the score to be kept is the one in the lap before, if more than 75% of the race has been run.
Since "simultaneous" disconnect aren't possible if even only one driver that isn't the server is still up and running, to me is either one of three things:

1. The race is invalid because it has no sense to continue;
2. The rule isn't applicable in ANY case and should be revoked;
3. The race has to be stopped and the last completed lap gives the final standings.
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#10 Robert Fleurke

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 04:25 PM

Rules are clear, -even when I don't have problems with giving points and coins to the victims of the mass screenfreeze- I actually prefer to let the result stand according to the rules, to those that finished the race. Screenfreezes and disco's are part of online racing sadly. I have lost wins and podiums due to that before.

It's a tough break for many, but we must keep caution altering the rules when it's convenient for some. I'd say awarding points/coins is at commish'/racestewards discretion, but the result has to stand IMO.


PS: there's a distinction between screenfreezes, and disco's...ofcourse the first leads to the latter, but is no connection issue. Screenfreezes are often a track issue.

Edited by Robert Fleurke, 21 April 2018 - 04:27 PM.


#11 Gabriele Maruca

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 05:04 PM

View PostRobert Fleurke, on 21 April 2018 - 04:25 PM, said:

Rules are clear, -even when I don't have problems with giving points and coins to the victims of the mass screenfreeze- I actually prefer to let the result stand according to the rules, to those that finished the race. Screenfreezes and disco's are part of online racing sadly. I have lost wins and podiums due to that before.

It's a tough break for many, but we must keep caution altering the rules when it's convenient for some. I'd say awarding points/coins is at commish'/racestewards discretion, but the result has to stand IMO.


PS: there's a distinction between screenfreezes, and disco's...ofcourse the first leads to the latter, but is no connection issue. Screenfreezes are often a track issue.

Man, look at our coin count and how much renting cars and repairing our Ferrari would cost us: we'd be forced to be at a loss, with the possiblity of not ever getting back on our feet again according on how the rules usually pan out in the end, and I've learnt it the hard way last season.
Basically, other than being robbed of the podium by a technicality, the team would be on the verge of being jolly well fucked, since we're already shit out of luck.
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#12 Robert Fleurke

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 05:55 PM

I understand Gabriele, it's nothing personal. For sure it's a huge disappointment for you and the team. Just keep at it, you have two good D1 drivers for sure. Tristan and Yannick arguably deserved their podiums, but they also were very lucky when I got the short end of the stick. Tristan apologized to me, and Yannick also had nowhere to go. That's all good. Just racing.

But we simply can't change the rules after the race. I think Bruce and the stewards did the right thing. We suffered too losing spots. It sucks, but it is what it is. Just try to accept the verdict and move forward. A screenfreeze doesn't take away that you were headed for a double podium, and that holds promise for the upcoming races. Best of luck.

Edited by Robert Fleurke, 21 April 2018 - 05:56 PM.


#13 Bo Bruce

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 06:50 PM

View PostGabriele Maruca, on 21 April 2018 - 02:43 PM, said:

decides

- to hereby participate to the D2 race in Montjuich with the damaged Ferrari car, in protest of the decision,
- to not abide by the decisions the Stewards may take in reaction to such action,
- to not pay any fine caused by the aforementioned behaviour,
- to do anything in its power to not let any change in regulations pass without its approval by the other teams.

This will have effect immediately and won't be revoked until the rightful standings have been restored.
- Gabriele.

(TL;DR : IS THIS A FUCKING JOKE, BO?)

unfortunate that you feel this way Gabe... but as i stated above, before the current wording of the rules, we had other issues. its not perfect, but it is where we stand at present. as Michi said, once the green flag  falls, the rules of the day are in place.  The rules being what they are, if changed, would be met with an equal protest from those not affected.  It happens. it used to happen with regularity. we adjust, we take deep breaths and we try to improve - in this case, all the Rules have been posted online from the beginning of season 21. There for all to see and comment or make suggestions THEN.

Since you indicate a strong feeling for not following any steward ruling, attempt to race a damaged car,  which by the way, was damaged BEFORE the incident became an issue, or attempt some kind of blockage to any rule amendment (?) ...of which you have at present no control of, i see little alternative other than suggest you look for another league.

no.. i'm not excluding you from oAo. i'm SUGGESTING that your unhappiness with rules in place, might find greater happiness in a league you create and run - and maybe in a matching 20 years of running such a league you might have a little more respect and understanding of what it takes to do so.

let me know where you stand. but be assured, failure to repair a damaged chassis before racing will either double its repair costs (as clearly stated) or your driver of said car will be excluded from the results.
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#14 Pepe Higdon

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Posted 21 April 2018 - 07:28 PM

I have to say that I'm sympathetic with Maruca's angst here. At least five drivers then still on the track went out at the same moment in the race with two laps to go. Why would the final standings not want to reflect the status of the race at the last moment prior to that act of God, something that is easily determined by reference to the replay? I understand that there is a rule in place that covers the mechanical resolution of this issue, and as a recovering lawyer I obviously can't support Gabriele's desire to subvert the existing rule unilaterally. But I wonder why this became the rule instead of an alternative approach that seems to me to be far more logical. What am I missing?

#15 Gabriele Maruca

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 02:25 AM

View PostRobert Fleurke, on 21 April 2018 - 05:55 PM, said:

I understand Gabriele, it's nothing personal. For sure it's a huge disappointment for you and the team. Just keep at it, you have two good D1 drivers for sure. Tristan and Yannick arguably deserved their podiums, but they also were very lucky when I got the short end of the stick. Tristan apologized to me, and Yannick also had nowhere to go. That's all good. Just racing.

But we simply can't change the rules after the race. I think Bruce and the stewards did the right thing. We suffered too losing spots. It sucks, but it is what it is. Just try to accept the verdict and move forward. A screenfreeze doesn't take away that you were headed for a double podium, and that holds promise for the upcoming races. Best of luck.

Robert, I'm not advocating to change the rules after the race, just advocating to follow what has already been written. Quoting directly from the rulebook:

"IF a race is not completed for any reason (such as mass disco) it must complete at least 1/2 the scheduled laps to be official. if less than 1/2 it will be rescheduled or replaced with an alternate track.

a MASS disco=everyone - and the result would be "re-run, re-run on alternate track, or cancel event." that decision to be determined after the race.
major disco=1/2 or more but not 'all' simultaneously disco
result:
  before 1/2 way= 1/2 points to finishers

at or after 1/2 way=results stand"

Did the race stop AFTER the halfpoint? Yes.
Did more than a half of the drivers disconnect roughly at the same time? Yes, since 8/15 is more than 7/15.
But EVEN IF we don't take into account the drivers that got the short end of the stick before the disconnection, there were 9 drivers on the track at lap 36 (according to the RA), and FIVE of them were gone at lap 37. Still more than half got royally fucked in the arse by a disconnection.

So WHY the rulebook hasn't been applied? Anyone's guess apart from Bo's and the Stewards'. I don't want to be conspiratorial like Senna in Monaco '84... but sure something's off.

And yes, Yannick and Tristan ARE excellent drivers, the problem is that they can't do much without a good car: as you might know, if you don't have a good car, it will most likely break. If it breaks, you'll have to fix it , and it costs. You push it to get the best result out of it in the next race and try to recoup your losses, and it breaks again. Again and again and again. Until you have -120-something coins at the end of the season and you've basically finished ONLY one race, in last position, and having to plea again to the other teams to have the debt removed and play on equal footing next season.
I wonder to whom it has happened last season, even when babysitting the Cooper.



View PostBo Bruce, on 21 April 2018 - 06:50 PM, said:

unfortunate that you feel this way Gabe... but as i stated above, before the current wording of the rules, we had other issues. its not perfect, but it is where we stand at present. as Michi said, once the green flag  falls, the rules of the day are in place.  The rules being what they are, if changed, would be met with an equal protest from those not affected.  It happens. it used to happen with regularity. we adjust, we take deep breaths and we try to improve - in this case, all the Rules have been posted online from the beginning of season 21. There for all to see and comment or make suggestions THEN.

Since you indicate a strong feeling for not following any steward ruling, attempt to race a damaged car,  which by the way, was damaged BEFORE the incident became an issue, or attempt some kind of blockage to any rule amendment (?) ...of which you have at present no control of, i see little alternative other than suggest you look for another league.

no.. i'm not excluding you from oAo. i'm SUGGESTING that your unhappiness with rules in place, might find greater happiness in a league you create and run - and maybe in a matching 20 years of running such a league you might have a little more respect and understanding of what it takes to do so.

let me know where you stand. but be assured, failure to repair a damaged chassis before racing will either double its repair costs (as clearly stated) or your driver of said car will be excluded from the results.

Bo Bruce, everybody!
So, let me recap: either one makes suggestions BEFORE the season starts and foresees situations in which a rule should be broken or changed as if we're all Doc Brown, able to travel to the future and get back again, or everyone has to shut up or leave.
I'm advocating FOR the respect of the rules, which HAS NOT BEEN DONE in this race! The steawards are at a fault, and so are you, since you're the Head of this organization! The rules that you so fondly defend state clearly what I've reported above, and in BOTH cases the race should've been red-flagged!

Oh, so you're "not" showing me the door: but from the situation, it's either me going out or Tristan and Yannick getting the short stick, all because someone didn't feel to look at the RA BEFORE sending out the results and got called out for what he did. Not necessarily you, of course.
Basically you're saying "Yer OUT!" for just pointing out what a shitshow the "creative" reading of the rulebook is... 20 years or not. And being this defensive of the decision doesn't do you any favours, since most of the drivers that races are clearly against the decided outcome and want the true outcome. Be more flexible, and reconsider. You're not this stubborn and everyone can see you're not doing the oAo itself any favours by upholding this decision.

If you do repeal the decision and dutifully implement the rules, or let the race be redone (with the subsequent wiping of any gain/loss deriving from it) I'll gladly repeal the statement and issue a public apology for the boutade. Neither you or me want a civil war here.

View PostPepe Higdon, on 21 April 2018 - 07:28 PM, said:

I have to say that I'm sympathetic with Maruca's angst here. At least five drivers then still on the track went out at the same moment in the race with two laps to go. Why would the final standings not want to reflect the status of the race at the last moment prior to that act of God, something that is easily determined by reference to the replay? I understand that there is a rule in place that covers the mechanical resolution of this issue, and as a recovering lawyer I obviously can't support Gabriele's desire to subvert the existing rule unilaterally. But I wonder why this became the rule instead of an alternative approach that seems to me to be far more logical. What am I missing?

That's exactly what I am trying to advocate here: the rules clearly state that in this instance a red flag is obligatory, and it hasn't been dropped. The Organization is breaching its own rules.
Also, I didn't want to act forcefully on a whim, but I got forced to act: the team has been basically threanened in its very existence by making it impossible to repair our Ferrari without having to rent a way less powerful car and gimp our chances in the next races to come, all while condemning us to the perpetual deficit to rent the Honda and repair it. You see the circular pattern, Pepe?

Edited by Gabriele Maruca, 22 April 2018 - 02:29 AM.

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#16 snafu

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 03:24 AM

View PostGabriele Maruca, on 22 April 2018 - 02:25 AM, said:

Robert, I'm not advocating to change the rules after the race, just advocating to follow what has already been written. Quoting directly from the rulebook:

"IF a race is not completed for any reason (such as mass disco) it must complete at least 1/2 the scheduled laps to be official. if less than 1/2 it will be rescheduled or replaced with an alternate track.

a MASS disco=everyone - and the result would be "re-run, re-run on alternate track, or cancel event." that decision to be determined after the race.
major disco=1/2 or more but not 'all' simultaneously disco
result:
  before 1/2 way= 1/2 points to finishers

at or after 1/2 way=results stand"

Did the race stop AFTER the halfpoint? Yes.
Did more than a half of the drivers disconnect roughly at the same time? Yes, since 8/15 is more than 7/15.
But EVEN IF we don't take into account the drivers that got the short end of the stick before the disconnection, there were 9 drivers on the track at lap 36 (according to the RA), and FIVE of them were gone at lap 37. Still more than half got royally fucked in the arse by a disconnection.

So WHY the rulebook hasn't been applied? Anyone's guess apart from Bo's and the Stewards'. I don't want to be conspiratorial like Senna in Monaco '84... but sure something's off.

And yes, Yannick and Tristan ARE excellent drivers, the problem is that they can't do much without a good car: as you might know, if you don't have a good car, it will most likely break. If it breaks, you'll have to fix it , and it costs. You push it to get the best result out of it in the next race and try to recoup your losses, and it breaks again. Again and again and again. Until you have -120-something coins at the end of the season and you've basically finished ONLY one race, in last position, and having to plea again to the other teams to have the debt removed and play on equal footing next season.
I wonder to whom it has happened last season, even when babysitting the Cooper.

...
...
...
That's exactly what I am trying to advocate here: the rules clearly state that in this instance a red flag is obligatory, and it hasn't been dropped. The Organization is breaching its own rules.

To me the confusion seems to be in the layout of the rule rather than the wording..

I understand the rule and description to be split into 3 parts and perhaps simply adding an subheading and spacing the wording differently would make it more clear.

My understanding..... (I may have it completely wrong but here goes)......

This is the rule, no other part of the wording relates to the rule everything else is either clarification of actions related to the rule.
"IF a race is not completed for any reason (such as mass disco) it must complete at least 1/2 the scheduled laps to be official. if less than 1/2 it will be rescheduled or replaced with an alternate track".

These are clarifications of the terms used in the rule "(Such as Mass Disco)" and do not in anyway modify the rule.
a MASS disco=everyone - and the result would be "re-run, re-run on alternate track, or cancel event." that decision to be determined after the race.
major disco=1/2 or more but not 'all' simultaneously disco

These clarify the points to be allocated at the end of the race.
result:
  before 1/2 way= 1/2 points to finishers

at or after 1/2 way=results stand"


So The rule is.....
"IF a race is not completed for any reason (such as mass disco) it must complete at least 1/2 the scheduled laps to be official. if less than 1/2 it will be rescheduled or replaced with an alternate track".

The question is...
Did we complete more than 1/2 the scheduled laps?

Answer yes... So discos (Mass or Major) don't actually apply and the result should stand.

Perhaps a sub heading to separate the "Disco Definitions" would make it more clear?

TTFN
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#17 Gabriele Maruca

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 04:01 AM

View Postsnafu, on 22 April 2018 - 03:24 AM, said:

To me the confusion seems to be in the layout of the rule rather than the wording..

I understand the rule and description to be split into 3 parts and perhaps simply adding an subheading and spacing the wording differently would make it more clear.

My understanding..... (I may have it completely wrong but here goes)......

This is the rule, no other part of the wording relates to the rule everything else is either clarification of actions related to the rule.
"IF a race is not completed for any reason (such as mass disco) it must complete at least 1/2 the scheduled laps to be official. if less than 1/2 it will be rescheduled or replaced with an alternate track".

These are clarifications of the terms used in the rule "(Such as Mass Disco)" and do not in anyway modify the rule.
a MASS disco=everyone - and the result would be "re-run, re-run on alternate track, or cancel event." that decision to be determined after the race.
major disco=1/2 or more but not 'all' simultaneously disco

These clarify the points to be allocated at the end of the race.
result:
  before 1/2 way= 1/2 points to finishers

at or after 1/2 way=results stand"


So The rule is.....
"IF a race is not completed for any reason (such as mass disco) it must complete at least 1/2 the scheduled laps to be official. if less than 1/2 it will be rescheduled or replaced with an alternate track".

The question is...
Did we complete more than 1/2 the scheduled laps?

Answer yes... So discos (Mass or Major) don't actually apply and the result should stand.

Perhaps a sub heading to separate the "Disco Definitions" would make it more clear?

TTFN
John.

But the real question here is... has the race ANY right to be declared completed, when more than a half of the field just disappears like nothing? Isn't it more like a farce at that point?
"Keep calm and go flat out!"

#18 snafu

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 04:52 AM

Hi Gabe,
Yes and honestly I do have sympathy for the injustice of it all. Disco's (Mass or isolated) are always frustrating for those involved and there is no simple answer

This has happened before and has been discussed at great length leading to the current rule being posted. The biggest issue was trying to balance the feelings of those who did complete the race against those who were discoed and those who had retired prior to the disco or perhaps not even attended the race. (Do you allow them to attend any rerun)??

I know there is a thread somewhere and I have searched for it this morning but haven't found it yet. Perhaps it was done via email exchange I'll have to check my history.

This isn't the 1st time this track has bit us in the A$$ we ran here in 2014 and back then it was also disco city. As much as I do like Montjuic I think unfortunately this track needs to be added to the blacklist after the D2 race.

TTFN
John.
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#19 Gabriele Maruca

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 05:14 AM

View Postsnafu, on 22 April 2018 - 04:52 AM, said:

Hi Gabe,
Yes and honestly I do have sympathy for the injustice of it all. Disco's (Mass or isolated) are always frustrating for those involved and there is no simple answer

This has happened before and has been discussed at great length leading to the current rule being posted. The biggest issue was trying to balance the feelings of those who did complete the race against those who were discoed and those who had retired prior to the disco or perhaps not even attended the race. (Do you allow them to attend any rerun)??

I know there is a thread somewhere and I have searched for it this morning but haven't found it yet. Perhaps it was done via email exchange I'll have to check my history.

This isn't the 1st time this track has bit us in the A$$ we ran here in 2014 and back then it was also disco city. As much as I do like Montjuic I think unfortunately this track needs to be added to the blacklist after the D2 race.

TTFN
John.

Well, that's nice of you trying to check back all of your history just to see when and where the precedent has been set, but answer me this, if you please:

Has ever, in the 20+ years of racing that this Organization has done, a team being unfairly threatened in its very sustainability by a ruling being misapplied?
Because, it's what's happening here: we can get over the stolen podium because the disconnect rule has been written with an acumen on par with Donald Trump's tweets (or we couldn't be here arguing about how to intepret it) as long as a fair compensation is set, since it's not the drivers' fault if the server had a lot of hits and misses lately. Problem is, we've been unfairly penalized by earning only 8 coins instead of the 20 we should be owed if the rule would've been applied correctly, the car has been unfairly deemed "unraceable" and so we should either repair it and have just a single lap to qualify (which is like throwing away the race on a track like this) or rent a new Honda, not be up to standards because it's a Honda in Montjuich, and have the risk to have both the Brabham and the Honda completely wrecked in the T1 mess. Do you see what is the problem?

Either way, we will run from the mid-pack, get fucked at T1 (because it always happens in this kind of tracks) and get back home with a bent Brabham, a broken Honda and a FUBAR Ferrari, with even less coins than before. At that point, we could just close shop and call it a season, because there is NO WAY to come back up from a mess like this if you're a privateer, much less if you're managing a team.

Edited by Gabriele Maruca, 22 April 2018 - 05:14 AM.

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#20 BurtAugust

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 06:09 AM

It seems gabe is questioning what 'the results stand' means.

Since the rules do not specify the results at the time of the major disco, they must mean the final results, which is how it was ajudicated.

I would suggest a clarification to the current rules be added to state that in the event of a major disco after halfway those involved in the major disco be considered finishers.

Also define more clearly that a major disco be considered half of the cars that start the race being discoed or frozen
within 15 seconds of each other and halfway to mean the leader had completed 1/2 or more of the scheduled laps before the 1st of the major discos occurred.

Edited by BurtAugust, 22 April 2018 - 08:19 AM.





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