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#1 BurtAugust

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Posted 01 September 2018 - 10:17 AM

Got disconnected while making my pit stop :(

#2 Michiel Pompert

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Posted 01 September 2018 - 11:48 AM

Before writing a race report, I wanted to apologise to Michi, for our getting together in Curva Grande halfway through the race. It had been great battling with you up till that point and the incident was unfortunate to say the least. I had chosen to give up the corner and lifted early but then saw you scrub more speed on the outside and I was on the inside of you, and warp took care of the rest. Probably you coudn't see what I was doing in your mirrors. Sorry about that and i can understand it if you wish the stewards to have a look at it. Our battle deserved to go to the finish :(
Graham Hill: "I'm an artist, the track is my canvas, the car is my brush."

#3 Robert Fleurke

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Posted 01 September 2018 - 02:07 PM

Sorry to hear Burt :( Also did miss Iestyn this race!?

Was a bit tensed before the race I do admit, and didn't come close to my PB I ran this week (dutch record 26.54). Still it was Pole, but the practise start worried me. Actually I can see the flagman with my FOV/resolution, but the car is close to the grass. No margin for a wobble having wheelspin. I suffer mostly when flagman are up high standing on a tower or so, since I have less vertical FOV (but way more horizontal FOV), like at some ovals and I believe also Leipzig. Then I can't see the flagman (having Pole).

Anyhow, everyone did a great job at the start. Thanks to Michael who conceded towards Curva Grande. Tried to build up the pace a bit, but already on Lap 4 or so I had a lapse, was somewhere else with my thoughts. Missed my braking point for Parabolica by quite a way. Immediately knew I was going to go off, but tried to do damage limitation. Went through the gravel trap and brushed/hit the hedge. Was lucky to rejoin behind Roy in P4.

That was a major wake-up call, and after that was patient and made safe passes on Roy, Frank/Killer and later Michael. Build up a gap, but at some point Michael had to retire, he still was reasonably close. When I pitted after 34 laps, I had a big gap to Killer. Enrique was running 3rd in the Honda amazingly, before dropping to 4th after his pitstop.

Second stint was all about managing the car and engine, and trying to make sure finishing. Didn't take any risks while passing and lapping, and was grateful to see the checkered flag after 68 laps! :1a:

Grats to Killer, and Michiel for their podium. Also great job Enrique and all other finishers. Way to nurse those Honda's! Commiserations to the retirements...

PS: we're back in the team championship, but my early on cock up proved to be costly after post race inspections...sorry teamies! :wounded1:

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Edited by Robert Fleurke, 01 September 2018 - 02:28 PM.


#4 Michkov

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Posted 01 September 2018 - 03:12 PM

Not much speed this week for me, qualy showed that with a low grid spot. Managed to snake my way through a gap to pick up a view spots at the beginning and was running 5th after some early offs. Once the gaps opened up though I tried to hit the marks and get to the end. After a trip through the Parabolica gravel. Michiel and Burt(?) got slipped past and I had some company. I could run with Michiels Cooper and we had a nice back and forth in the slipstream.Until I thought I had free range into CG and we hit, my subsequent impact in the armco tore my rear suspension off the Braby thus ending my race. Should have taken it a bit more easy given that we had only done half distance at that point.

View PostMichiel Pompert, on 01 September 2018 - 11:48 AM, said:

Before writing a race report, I wanted to apologise to Michi, for our getting together in Curva Grande halfway through the race. It had been great battling with you up till that point and the incident was unfortunate to say the least. I had chosen to give up the corner and lifted early but then saw you scrub more speed on the outside and I was on the inside of you, and warp took care of the rest. Probably you coudn't see what I was doing in your mirrors. Sorry about that and i can understand it if you wish the stewards to have a look at it. Our battle deserved to go to the finish :(

No hard feelings Michiel, racing incident from my side. I thought I heard you back off on the approach and so I assumed I had the corner. In the corner I was too busy to look in the mirrors so I have to drive on what I think is around me. Glad you weren't much effect by the tangle.
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#5 BurtAugust

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Posted 01 September 2018 - 05:16 PM

Ies is on holiday this week.

#6 MGL66

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 08:57 AM

After finishing every race I started through Brno, I'm suddenly struggling through a dry spell. My retirement from Aintree was entirely my fault. The Weslake's failure at Monza, however, is more mysterious to me. I had two such failures in the days leading up to the race, so I lengthened 5th gear so that the tach never passed 12 o'clock on the dial. During the race, I was acutely aware of slowing down before every downshift and fully lifting my foot off the throttle with every upshift so as not to buzz the engine. I was being as gentle as I could but still, much to my surprise, it blew up.

Up until then, things were going quite well. Off the line, from Q2 I briefly gave thought to challenging Robert into Curva Grande, but since he had the racing line and pole position thought better of it. Why play rough in turn 1 of a full-length Grand Prix? I settled in to watch my gaps to him and Killer slowly grow.

I remember seeing a green flag exiting Parabolica on lap 3 and dumbly assumed that it was in reference to someone behind me going wide. It never even occurred to me that it might be Robert who went off. On lap 4 I remember being surprised that I couldn't even see Robert ahead of me any more. Had he pulled out that much of a lead already? I think it was lap 6 by the time I realized that I was leading this race! Then I wondered whether Robert had DNFed or merely dropped behind.

The answer to that question became clear when I saw his name on my pit board. I concentrated on turning clean, quick, consistent laps, but still he caught me (of course). I just concentrated on my own laps and kept things clean and predictable. What else could I have done? Play defense for 50 laps? Clearly, Robert was being patient and was as determined as I was to simply not make a mistake. He got past on lap 16, as it turned out never to be challenged after that.

By then, I was in full cruise mode, losing ground to Robert and with a 9 second and growing gap to Frank. I was already starting to count down the laps to my mid-race fuel stop, when a BANG followed by silence signaled the end of my race on lap 28. Very disappointing, to say the least. I felt good, totally in command of the car and myself. I thought that even though I wouldn't catch Robert on speed, any doubts that he might have about whether I was running a no-stop or one-stop strategy might push him into another mistake.

But none of that came into play because my Weslake, dissatisfied with life as a silky smooth Grand Prix engine, decided to become a Claymore mine instead. Finicky bastard.

Congratulations to Robert on overcoming the early mistake to take the win. I'm happy to see Frank running up front to take 2nd place. And with Michiel taking 3rd in a Cooper ... well that's just bizarro world stuff there, isn't it?

Off to Phoenix. Now where did I put those Dramamine tablets ...?

Michael

#7 Michiel Pompert

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Posted 04 September 2018 - 12:10 PM

With hospital visits, hectic days at work and at home and a long race at Monza in a Cooper in store, I thought it's best to not drive much and just go into the race planning to finish without stopping. I had not actually tried this beyond 5 lap stints but i knew with a bit of fuel saving I should be fine.

Qualifying pace wasn't really to be expected but quite a few mid 29's led to a P10 out of 13, at least not last but wondering what the race would be like, seeing guys disappear into the distance. The opening laps however I seemed to be able to keep in touch with the cars ahead for some time, the slipstreaming and battling working out nicely and cleanly as well. This looked like it was going to be fun actually and I did my best to keep the tow of the Brabhams around me. After Greg dropped to be right in front of me, Roy left with gear change issues to prevent damaging the car by having a wrong shift and Burt went into the gravel at Parabolica I was hoping to use him to pull myself along down the straights towards Michi further ahead. Sadly Greg slid into the Lesmo inside Armco and I had a gap to Michi which seemed very stable but I couldn't gain his tow, and then Burt went by as well after a bit of effort to try and defend the position, but it was no use eventually.

From then on I seemed to make the most of other people's further mishaps and pitstops. Sadly Burt was lost in his pitstop and got disconnected. There was the coming together with Michi after a great dice up to that moment for several laps, and Michael disappearing without me noticing until a few laps later that I was suddenly in P4, with Greg chasing me down, a steady 3-4 seconds behind me but with a wounded engine so effectively driving a Cooper as well. Then suddenly I saw a Honda pull out the pits on lap 42 but I didn't realise as I waved at him that it was in fact Enrique who pitted from P3 and we had a further challenge on our hands now. The only advantage I now had was the lighter fuel load as he pitted late for his only stop. He then proceeded to stick behind me with Greg right behind him for several laps until he had a bit of a mishap in Parabolica, and lost a few seconds. I used it to keep trying a few lift and coasts into Parabolica and short shifts out of there and Lesmo 2 in order to save as much as I dared without getting Enrique a run at me. with just 2 laps to go and not yet seeing the fuel pressure gauge dropping I was finally sure I would make it, and now decided to push, but it was a bit rough and Enrique actually closed a bit more again until I did my best lap in the very last lap, ensuring P3 was safe.

It was really the maximum possible for me, profiting off other people's unfortunate troubles and less efficient tactics, and stunned to find myself on the podium on this track in a Cooper. Never would have given myself the chance beforehand! Also the race was never dull, always having someone ahead of me or visible in my mirrors and having to push on to try and keep position was enjoyable. a highlight for me this season that's for sure!

Grats to Rob for the solid win and Frank for being safe in P2. Also congrats to the Honda drivers who all brought their heavy ticking bombs to the end of the race, a remarkable statistic! Wishing the unfortunate people above a more happy event in Phoenix. I wonder what can be done in a Cooper there, but surely it will be less surprising when the flag has dropped :D

Edited by Michiel Pompert, 04 September 2018 - 01:05 PM.

Graham Hill: "I'm an artist, the track is my canvas, the car is my brush."

#8 Robert Fleurke

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Posted 05 September 2018 - 05:14 AM

View PostMGL66, on 04 September 2018 - 08:57 AM, said:

After finishing every race I started through Brno, I'm suddenly struggling through a dry spell. My retirement from Aintree was entirely my fault. The Weslake's failure at Monza, however, is more mysterious to me. I had two such failures in the days leading up to the race, so I lengthened 5th gear so that the tach never passed 12 o'clock on the dial. During the race, I was acutely aware of slowing down before every downshift and fully lifting my foot off the throttle with every upshift so as not to buzz the engine. I was being as gentle as I could but still, much to my surprise, it blew up.

Do you know what your oil temperature was Michael? (if you saved client replay, check lap 27 in GPLRA/graph/oil temperature). One of the reasons using only 3-4-5 gears here in Eagle was also managing the engine temp (apart from using less fuel, less neutral upshift time and more stability in Para/Lesmo).

It could be a random thing as well, if there is, but in my experience I always try to keep the oil temp at a certain threshold for a car/engine. For the Eagle I ran 93C-97C depending on pushing and part of the track (engine would run hottest towards Lesmo 1). I like to keep the Weslake definately below 98C the least!

Engine oil temperature is related to how much rpm an engine makes, that's why Honda, BRM and Ferrari run mostly 100C+, and the Repco very cool.

Anyhow, very tough luck. I was lucky with my agressive downshifting, especially first stint...

Edited by Robert Fleurke, 05 September 2018 - 05:15 AM.


#9 MGL66

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Posted 05 September 2018 - 08:35 PM

According to GPLRA, on lap 27 my Weslake recorded a high temperature of 94ºC approaching Parabolica, and a low temperature of 85ºC exiting Lesmo 2.

Apart from a random failure, the best guess I have at this point is that I may have stressed the engine too much on Lap 1. Keeping my head on a swivel to see other cars around me, and unable to clearly hear my own engine's note above everyone else's, I did stretch the tach needle past 12 o'clock. Perhaps it was too much for the Weslake to endure.

Michael

Edited by MGL66, 06 September 2018 - 11:40 AM.


#10 Robert Fleurke

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Posted 07 September 2018 - 08:37 AM

I should have added Fahrenheit numbers, 85C (185F) is way too low for Monza/Weslake. There can be only about max 4-5C (8F) difference between low and high oil temp at Monza. Not sure if the low temperature has to do with the failure, like losing oil pressure, or that it's lost in conversion. Also not sure what the real problem was, like camshaft failure etc...

93C-97C = 199F-207F

It's frustrating having such a failure and not understanding why. You deserve better Michael, especially when you drive cleaner than me concerning shifting and rpm's.

Edited by Robert Fleurke, 07 September 2018 - 08:40 AM.


#11 MGL66

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Posted 07 September 2018 - 10:17 AM

OK, wait a second, I'm an idiot. You asked for oil temperature and I'm pretty sure I gave you water temperatures. I'll check oil temps this evening and re-report.

Sorry about that!
Michael

#12 Donnie Yourth

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Posted 07 September 2018 - 06:26 PM

I think that engine failures can be completely random and not with a shred of sense at times.  I recall a race with the UKGPL in GP65 cars at Montjuich several years ago under pro rules.  The GP65 cars are robust re engine durability.  I joined the grid and started warming the engine of my Brabham/BRM not exceeding 7k revolutions.  After about 7-10s, KERBLAM!  Engine bits scattered all over the grid without me moving so much as a millimetre.  I escaped to the menu without even seeing the green flag and effectively scored a DNS.

#13 MGL66

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Posted 08 September 2018 - 07:54 AM

Lap 27:
Oil temperatures = 94ºC - 96ºC
Oil pressure = a steady 79PSI
Water temperatures = 85ºC - 94ºC

Those number don't look so bad. I am convinced that either GPL gave me a random failure, or I was too abusive on Lap 1. If it's the former, then I can't do anything about that. If it's the latter, then at least I've learned that I can't allow my attention to stray too far from the tachometer even on Lap 1. I appreciate your help, Robert. Thanks for your specific target numbers on oil pressure. I have never paid much attention to that, but I will in the future.

I've always thought that Doni is right, GPL does employ a purely random engine failure algorithm. The odd thing is that I had three failures, two in training, then one in the race. Perhaps the three combined were some combination of random failure, too short a 5th gear, and too much abuse on Lap 1? I guess I'll never know for sure.


Thanks, guys,
Michael

#14 Robert Fleurke

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 05:58 AM

Thanks Michael.

I like to add taking these oil temp numbers as a threshold, is something purely from my own experience. Like noticing at what temps I do blow up. So for each car/engine I have my own oil temp thresholds, related to the engine's rpm's. It doesn't have to be true, but it works for me taking it as a guideline...

I'm intending to ask Lee if there are any factwise numbers or thresholds mechanically. Ofcourse in real racing they watch the water for engine temp, but in GPL for me watching oil temp works best.

Edited by Robert Fleurke, 09 September 2018 - 08:39 AM.


#15 Robert Fleurke

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Posted 12 September 2018 - 06:04 AM

My last post off topic:

Quote

Hi Rob,

The engine water and oil temps are computed on the fly based on the amount of horsepower being used.  So the more powerful engines such as the BRM indeed produce more heat than the lower horsepower Brabham.  Offsetting this is the engine cooling system which is larger for the BRM than the smaller Brabham, but the overall effect is that the BRM will run hotter than the Brabham.

As you've discovered, the less rpm and horsepower you use, the lower the temps will be.  Higher car speed increases the cooling, but requires more horsepower to get there so it's all a tradeoff.

I once had some notes about where the engine started to fail based on the water and oil temps, but can't find them now.  If I rediscover them and find anything useful, I'll pass it along.


Lee

I'm hoping Lee can find his notes and then compare them to my own. Then I might start a thread here at oAo or SRMZ to share the data.

update:

Quote

Rob, I found those notes and they aren't much help in determining at what temp the engine starts to fail.  Posted Image

Also, I reviewed the original '67 F1 engines and they all use the same cooling factors for oil and water.  So their effective radiator sizes are all the same.  Later mods have different cooling factors to model different radiator sizes.

In short, this explains the widespread working oil temperature of different engines, related to rpm/hp. I will keep using my own notes/thresholds that can't hurt, apart from a compromise at certain tracks./races.

On a sidenote found my downshifting wasn't as agressive as I thought. Checking GPLRA gearchange analyzer comes up with different data than my eyes see on the dash. Good thing I've looked into this all. Eases my mind in races. You guys don't know how much doubts I have during a race. :P

Edited by Robert Fleurke, 12 September 2018 - 11:34 AM.





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