Racing On Ovals Discussion / Suggestions


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Poll: to Oval or NOT to Oval (22 member(s) have cast votes)

should we have Oval(s) on oAo schedule

  1. yes (18 votes [81.82%])

    Percentage of vote: 81.82%

  2. no (4 votes [18.18%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.18%

if YES - how many

  1. 1 is plenty (13 votes [59.09%])

    Percentage of vote: 59.09%

  2. 2 is tops (8 votes [36.36%])

    Percentage of vote: 36.36%

  3. more than 2 (1 votes [4.55%])

    Percentage of vote: 4.55%

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#1 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 04 June 2016 - 10:20 AM

About the rules for ovals, I would suggest that cars that are going to be lapped should follow the outside line, clearly. With GPL we are far from having the downforce NASCARs have and to be forced to pass on the outside will make you lose lots of speed and there is little room to pass at these speeds with the wall right there waiting.
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#2 Claudio Pablo Navonne

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Posted 04 June 2016 - 10:38 AM

View PostArturo Pereira, on 04 June 2016 - 10:20 AM, said:

About the rules for ovals, I would suggest that cars that are going to be lapped should follow the outside line, clearly. With GPL we are far from having the downforce NASCARs have and to be forced to pass on the outside will make you lose lots of speed and there is little room to pass at these speeds with the wall right there waiting.
And nobody down a gear in the main straight, that makes him lose almost 20 km / h with the car coming behind, under his gearbox. Because the car behind can not avoid hitting it, ruining his race and destroying an expensive car. :3dnono:

Edited by Claudio Pablo Navonne, 04 June 2016 - 10:39 AM.

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#3 Pepe Higdon

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Posted 04 June 2016 - 10:54 AM

View PostArturo Pereira, on 04 June 2016 - 10:20 AM, said:

About the rules for ovals, I would suggest that cars that are going to be lapped should follow the outside line, clearly. With GPL we are far from having the downforce NASCARs have and to be forced to pass on the outside will make you lose lots of speed and there is little room to pass at these speeds with the wall right there waiting.

Just before the start someone posted on the track chat that slower cars should stay to the inside. That wasn't my understanding of how things should work, so when we were underway, I stayed either high or low (but never in the middle) when overtaking cars were behind me. Perhaps it should be stressed before next year's oval that slower cars really should keep high. Arturo's reasoning could not be more sound.

I know Daytona isn't at the top of everyone's list of favorite tracks, but it's about five miles from my condo and between N2003 and GPL I've probably got more miles on it than any other track in the game. That being said, given the carnage that we saw in both division races, Bristol might have been a safer choice this year.  :Oo:

#4 Sadik

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Posted 04 June 2016 - 11:25 AM

It was I who said at the end of qualifying: "slow cars were told to stay low, hotshots are still trying inside passes"

that was based on Doni's Post below, which I took to be rules of the road:
"As the curtain is about to go up on our D1 race, a final note...
I recommend that cars about to be lapped stay low on the banking.  Faster cars pass on the high side.
IF YOU'RE SLOW, STAY LOW.  :)
Don't even THINK of trying to pass me on my left, gys."


So please Commish......let's clarify what is a suggestion, what is a recommendation and what is a rule, shall we?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

as for my race... I was stupid, only me to blame.
I had what I thought was a great setup, the "can't do anything wrong kind". The Cooper just didn't have enough poop to even stay in the draft for more than 3 feet.
After being lapped by a Ferrari, I touched the wall and slid into Niky. I'm very sorry about that my friend, but you probably saw in that split second that I was no longer in control.
I was elated to see you still running and finishing extremely well.

As for schools and skills.......... front runners in Eagles and Lotus should also be able to identify slower cars and slower drivers when approaching, No?

#5 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 04 June 2016 - 12:24 PM

Boss :)

I read an email that included Doni´s comments and I supposed this was the rule to follow for this race. I thought that it was wrong, but I don´t discuss rules. In this particular case, I thought that, specially after doing some laps today in both unofficial practice, qualy and race sessions, the rule was wrong imho.

Running alone at Daytona, with an Eagle in my case, we are doing a bit more than 200mph, about 90 meters per second, and even faster if we are going in the draft. This, combined with the fact that oval setups are totally asymetrical, makes impossible to use the brakes to slow down the car before an emergency. Why? Because the car will spin out of control in any direction and the driver will be just a passenger. So the only possible actions are: a. to lift off soon enough or b. to point the car towards the inside and say a prayer for it not returning to the track and then use the brakes. Pointing the car against the wall is the worst possible solution since there are huge chances you will take out other car/s, specially in the first laps.

So the more speed you get the less control you have over your car if you face an emergency and, with the high speeds we can get at ovals, this is what makes drivers´ behaviour much more important that at, probably, any other kind of track. The key is being predictable. Perhaps somebody noticed that, if we watch the mirrors we can see other car running more about 4 or 5s behind. And it is advisable to watch the mirrors, no matter the position, while we are in the straights, or through the turns if we have nothing ahead. And we should do this 4 or 5 times per lap, and more if we are being followed by other car/s close.

Another important thing to notice is that at ovals warp plays a much more important role than at any other track. This is probably the most frequent cause of accidents imho, so running 3 wide through a turn is out of the question and running 2 wide is a big risk. This is why slower cars should go on the outside since this way 2 cars will be running together the shortest possible time through a turn and so the lower risk of an accident caused by warp.

Also all passes should be done on the inside, the left side. If 2 cars are fighting for position and the car behind decides to try a pass on the outside, that driver is taking a huge risk of finishing his race against the wall on the outside. At equal speed, a car on the inside has more room to the right to go wide than a car that is running close to the wall, so it is impossible, as in NASCAR, to keep a high speed on the outside line in the turns.

Bob Higdon raced with me at ovals for years and I bet he knows what I am talking about.

If we revisit ovals, imho it is a great idea to share setups but to share replays and to talk about the different techniques to be used at ovals it is also a must do. And since it is also important to get practice driving in a pack of cars, perhaps we should schedule 2 or 3 practice races before the season starts. I know many drivers hate ovals, but as a GPLer said once, there are no bad tracks, just drivers than can´t deal with them ;)

And hey, running at an oval is the only chance I have to win a race at oAo, so I guess we should race them more frequently :P

Edited by Arturo Pereira, 04 June 2016 - 12:25 PM.

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#6 Donnie Yourth

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Posted 04 June 2016 - 12:41 PM

Hi, fellas!  I'm somewhat amused at the comments re where and how lapped cars should run but I take your commentaries seriously as some confusion and grief came to the fore in the D2 Daytona event.

I have other fish to fry at the moment...Indycar Belle Isle Saturday race on the horizon...so will be back later for a more detailed report but firstly, I must say that my recommendations were just that.  A recommendation.  I did not set a 'rule' as I have no authority to do so.  Bo put faith in my experience and I can say with a 100% degree of assurance that it was not misplaced.

Those of you whom are advocating a 'if you're slow, go high' policy need to re-think things.  Majorly.  Your thinking is coming from below your belt, not above your neck.

#7 col bentley

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Posted 04 June 2016 - 03:40 PM

Passing into the turn on the "inside" is the only safe pass , running two wide here involves alot of trust in your opponent ... if in any doubt you should hold off until the exit.

Backmarkers should not try to block and allow the overtake by yeilding the entry to the faster car and then make up the time by hooking onto the back of them , nobody has to lose time this way.

Everyone should stick to their side of the track when close to another driver (mainly applies during early laps).

Do not race a car that has lapped you.

Be predictable , be patient, be sensible.

If you intend to race ;

1. you should "test" the car with maximum fuel load e.g 40+ gallons , this will make sure the car is safe and won't bottom out unexpectedly.

2. you should try to do some running with others on the server, you will be surprised what can be learned just by watching.

3. you should search or ask for a set up if you cannot control the car consistently. ( I would provide a base set up if asked )

4. adjust your steering ratio, you will not need 7:1 on an oval ( I used 25:1 )

If in doubt ask!

P.S. I have driven the BRM here and it really hates the high line , so , I can see why Doni posted his comment ....... drivers should take things like this into consideration, but, as a general rule I would have to stick with "passing is done on the inside".

#8 Bo Bruce

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Posted 04 June 2016 - 08:09 PM

Let me know the comment # in the D2 Daytona posts and i'll move them here.
thanks.
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http://oao-gpl.speedgeezers.net/start.html

#9 Donnie Yourth

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 04:52 AM

Excellent, Bo!  Having a dedicated thread is just the thing the club needs to voice their opinions on oval circuit protocols and policies.  I'll be back with input later today.  And I do think that the oAo should keep an oval on the sked.  They are a unique challenge.  After all, the Indianapolis 500 Sweepstakes event was once part of the WDC, wasn't it?

#10 PeterA

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 06:43 AM

I appreciate that there's some history to it and that some oAo-people like ovals (may God have mercy on their souls :-P), but I Do dislike Ovals So much that I just want to voice my attitude that I don't think it brings anything positive to the season.. I completely accept that it's a challenge to keep the car going till the end, which my crash should support (though I could crash everywhere ;-)) - I'm guessing there has been previous votes about having ovals in the schedule and a certain amount of people was for and that's why it's in the schedule? If so I completely accept it but with the coins at stake and all I'll just sit it over next season, because this time showed that I simply can't motivate myself to practice enough to be race-ready for turning left for 75 laps.. Hope this post doesn't comes off too negative, it's just my opinion nothing else, love racing in oAo :-)

#11 Bob Simpson

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 07:38 AM

Let me add that I HATE tracks with hairpins and it would be fine with me if Monaco never was included in our schedule.  Ovals are the other end of the spectrum of course but both types of track have their challenges where certain drivers will shine.  But I'd MUCH rather race at an oval than Monaco.

Perhaps there should just be a separate section added to the rules about ovals - overtaking and exiting the pits.  Then you can copy and paste them in the discussion just before those races.

Also, the setup at an oval is so strange that I'd suggest that there be some posted to help out.  I know that Micheal Lowrey posted a great setup for our team that I would never have come up with on my own.
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#12 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 08:26 AM

Here go all the setups I have for oval tracks where we race with AtlasF1 in the past. There are setups for qualy sessions and for the race.

Unzip the content into your \sierra\gpl\players\Your_Name\setups folder.

Attached Files


Edited by Arturo Pereira, 05 June 2016 - 08:26 AM.

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#13 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 08:27 AM

Btw, if any of you need any of the tracks, I have all the ovals in my PC, so just ask :)
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#14 Robert Fleurke

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 08:36 AM

I use Brian Hall GPL oval setups, and tweak/finetune them  to my style/liking...for me ovalracing is natural, I've done it for many years online before...even raced the likes of Dale Jr. and Denny Hamlin! :D

Problem with GPL is the tiremodel isn't made for ovals (NR2003 had four chassis/tiremodels for different type of tracks), and GPL lacks a spotter...at ovals when a car has any overlap, you need to give room, that's he main difference, and trusting your fellow driver to race close, being aware and holding their lines...for me it's common sense but for some the struggle to stay on track comes first I guess...but a track like Daytona is as simple as it gets I'm afraid, but you need to have a handle on the car...(strg ratio is very important to make tiny corrections)

#15 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 08:55 AM

Some points to start with:

1. Overtaking:
There are some oval tracks, like Talladega or Daytona, where there is apparently a lot of room at the turns, but coming at 200/220mph into one of those turns makes the track less wider than it is. At fast ovals, like Atlanta, Daytona, Talladega, Texas, Ontario and so on, there is only one fast/safe raceline and it´s the inside one. Trying to turn on the outside, with the wall very close, it´s totally unsafe.
So imho, I would say that we should overtake using the inside line and so cars being lapped should use the outside line, which is slower in GPL.
This means that, while in practice, we should try both the outside AND the inside line to be ready for the race, even if we are running alone.

2. Exiting/entering the pits:
In this case, I would suggest to exit the pits AFTER turn 2, that is usually at the back straight. To enter the pits the safer way is to move to the left of the track at the back straight, to slow down and to enter the apron BEFORE T3. This is the safer way. We could abandon the track and enter the apron AFTER the last turn, but if we haven´t slow down enough, this is a crash waiting to happen.

3. Setups:
Between the ones I have uploaded here today there are for all tastes. However, most of them were made for the qualy session and are not ready for a race. Usually, the race setup is directly derived from the one used for the qualy with some changes.
Generally speaking, setups for oval tracks are designed, as in real life, to help the car to turn left as fast as possible without overheating the RF tyre. This overheating will mean less grip from that tyre and lots of understeer. The way to deal with this is running slower for some laps, to soften the RF spring rate or both.
This is why setups for oval tracks show totally asymmetrical cambers, again as in real life. IndyCars also use different static ride heights not only for the front and rear, but also for the left and right side of the car, with the right side being set higher than the inside. We can´t do this in GPL,but we can play with springs rates and static ride heights at the front and rear.
One important thing to consider to keep control of the car is the steering wheel ratio. Since it depends on the wheel each of us is using, I would say only that we must use very high steering ratios for ovals, as higher as needed to avoid the car losing grip while turning in a violent and sudden way. In my case, I use 10 to 12 for road courses and 20 to 25 for ovals.
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#16 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 09:11 AM

As with roadcourses, all ovals are different even if there are some that look similar. Atlanta looks like Texas, but Texas has some nasty bumps at T1/T2 and can ruin a race if not properly faced. This is to say that we must know each track in detail to avoid nasty surprises. Texas T1/T2 is, imho, a very good example. With full fuel load and cold tyres, you have 99% chances to bottoming up if you took the inside line too soon and that happens, your grip is equal to 0 and a crash is unavoidable. If this happens at the front of the pack, the carnage is also unavoidable.
Bankings are characteristic of ovals, probably with the exception of Monza10k. The higher the angle of the banking, the higher the speed, the higher the risk of bottoming up. The solution is a compromise between speed, higher ride height and/or stiffer spring rates. Fortunately it won´t take long to learn an oval, but it will take a bit more time to know the proper raceline. One important thing: there is only ONE fast and safe raceline at all ovals. This is also true for tracks like Monza for instance. Any other raceline is slower, but can be safe to learn also the unusual racelines if one has to avoid a crash. The fact that oval setups are totally asymmetrical makes then very unstable and so using the brakes should be avoided. This helps if we noticed the problem early enough, so keeping the concentration high and watching what´s going on far ahead is very important. So if you have to use the brakes, step on them. This will keep the car going straight ahead with no steering, but will avoid the car hitting everything around. If this happens, try to point the car to the inside of the track and step on the brakes. Perhaps you will hit a wall, but you won´t hit the outside wall and go back to the track with no control, and so others won´t crash with your car.
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#17 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 09:20 AM

Finally, for today ;), practice is everything, but it is quite important to get practice racing with other cars in the track. Running in a pack of 2, 3 or more cars for many laps is a tough challenge and demands lots of trust in the other drivers. To this respect, we must understand that we must be predictable not only for the car ahead if we are going to try a pass, but also for the cars behind. In this cases, using the mirrors frequently is a must. If you see the car behind dissapearing from your mirrors, we must assume it has gone to our left and will probably try a pass. So when this happens NEVER change your raceline to the left. If you are coming into a turn in this situation, lift off and let him go asap. If there other cars behind, try to keep your raceline even if it slower. If you keep in touch with the car/cars ahead, you will have your chance to retake your position sooner than later.
And unless you are absolutely sure there is nobody behind you or to your left/right in the blind spot, NEVER change your raceline in a turn. Through the straights there is more room to even going off the track to avoid a crash, but at the bankings this is impossible without losing control of the car.
Also, never lift off suddenly when there is a car right behind you in your mirrors. Keep up your speed and your usual raceline. If that car is going to pass you, it won´t show up in your mirrors.
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#18 JMF

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 09:21 AM

The only thing better for taking a nap than a nascar oval is watching golf.
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#19 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 09:22 AM

I am not for including more ovals in the schedule if the majority doesn´t like them. If there is going to be an oval track in the schedule, I would say that on oAo vacations, we could host some short races with very long practice sessions so we can get practice with other cars in the track. This way we can learn faster to deal with different situations and so to drive safer and have more fun, if this is possible :)
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#20 Arturo Pereira

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Posted 05 June 2016 - 09:25 AM

View PostJMF, on 05 June 2016 - 09:21 AM, said:

The only thing better for taking a nap than a nascar oval is watching golf.

Well, I would not suggest to take a nap while running at 200mph. However, I would take a nap when wife and daughter want to watch "Titanic" again ;)
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