Regarding Race At Pir/ Rolling Or Standing Start Debate


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#21 Robert Fleurke

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 08:52 AM

I'm with you guys :D

Let's stay on flat apron throughout T1/2 exiting pits, before entering the track on the backstraight before the kink. You might have to run on the grass to stay out of harms way. If anything, it's key and normal to leave the racing line to the cars that are on racespeed, or the leaders, when lapping. This track seems to have only one line, and it will need cooperation from the leaders as well the lapped cars to make sure things go smoothly.

#22 Bo Bruce

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 10:36 AM

couple things... besides a track that will tax ALL of our PATIENCE ~
#1 from Rob F (a forum post - but worth emailing so all will see)
as there is no paved pit road that joins normally to racing surface:

Let's stay on flat apron throughout T1/2 exiting pits, before entering the track on the backstraight before the kink. You might have to run on the grass to stay out of harms way. If anything, it's key and normal to leave the racing line to the cars that are on racespeed, or the leaders, when lapping. This track seems to have only one line, and it will need cooperation from the leaders as well the lapped cars to make sure things go smoothly.

#2 at drop of GREEN ... we begin a 'pace' lap...

front row to MAINTAIN 100mph/160kph

the grid (should) be a 5 meter stagger, 1x1 lineup. HOLD YOUR POSITION, IN LINE, til YOU cross the S/F line.

means EACH driver.. not just the front row!


repeating... NO OVERTAKING til you pass S/F

Guidlines for the polesitter: The polesitter does not slow down once underway. Every action of the lead car gets transmitted down the field, amplified by human reaction time. This can cause accidents in the middle/back of the field. The polesitter sticks to a speed limit. The number is track specific it should be chosen to allow the field to be in formation at latest when the cars enter the final sector. This will naturally feel much slower than necessary but keep in mind the field gets drawn out when getting underway and once moving the lead car cant slow down.  we don't want cars stopping abruptly because they cant catch the field otherwise. Finally for everyone: There will be no weaving or hard braking during the pace lap. If you need to avoid another car roll up beside it.
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#23 bobho-in

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Posted 10 September 2018 - 12:42 PM

I agree with Robert that there will be only 1 fast line. Don't expect to use it all the time. In the race drivers will have many different lines.  There will be traffic. There will be a lot of interaction. The top finishers will be able to race on different lines nearly every lap. There has to be give and take.  Drivers who only know full speed and won't slow down for anything won't last long. Driving at PIR will take a lot of patience
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#24 snafu

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 08:32 AM

I do wonder why we got into the rolling start  mentality. Was it just because "It's an Oval so we do a rolling start"?

The S/F straight has no camber at all, It's very flat. T1 is certainly no more hazardous than say Interlagos, Ardmore, AintreeR to name just a few.. One could almost argue the slower speed drivers would be travelling as they enter T1 from a standing start could prove less catastrophic than everyone heading towards T1 with 100mph already under there wheels. I think the no overtaking until you cross the SF line will be very hard to police.

I'm not going to argue against it but was just wondering about the logic. I personally would have preferred a standing start, staggered 1X1 grid with a bit more spacing than usual.

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#25 Bo Bruce

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 10:32 AM

logic? LOGIC?!   :o
well.... i was asked about it, i said, bring it up to the league and see what the response is.
it was posted here.. and of the replies, the tilt went in favor of 'rolling'... so then we moved on to making it work and being 'safe' - putting words to emphasize intention.

much like starting grids, some of this need be worked out before the season, not a week before the race :P
but here we are and moving forward, the point of rolling or not behind us -

another factor is, yes we've done rolling starts on ovals before, so maybe its just a mindset. i agree that it prob wasn't necessary here.
that;s why i let the league have the input :)
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#26 Michkov

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 03:01 PM

View Postsnafu, on 11 September 2018 - 08:32 AM, said:

I do wonder why we got into the rolling start  mentality. Was it just because "It's an Oval so we do a rolling start"?

Because I like them at ovals, and Bo didn't say no. So I took the idea and ran with it. You are allowed to blame me should more than half the field be wiped out before T1.


That said I highly recommend jumping on the server later in the week to have dry run or two.
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#27 Robert Fleurke

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 04:00 PM

I do like rolling starts at ovals, it simply belongs to these type of races.

But everyone needs to be disciplined and aware. Let's not run too close to eachother on this staggered start. Also when is the Polesitter allowed to start the race/accelerate? Between exit T4 and S/F I guess!?

#28 Bo Bruce

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 07:22 PM

with NO OVERTAKING til each crosses the S/F line, if the front row accelerates before that, they will likely be on the tail of cars at the back of the start grid :P
can we keep ALL acceleration to the S/F line?
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#29 bobho-in

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Posted 12 September 2018 - 05:50 AM

My past experience (mainly from  different leagues) is that as soon as the leaders start accelerating everybody will want to follow. Waiting till the S/F line may really stretch out the field if done per instruction. I still think the hard part will be having everybody take off from a standing start and feel confident that they are where they should be. That will take practice.
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#30 Robert Fleurke

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Posted 12 September 2018 - 06:11 AM

I remember from two seasons ago, at Daytona, the Polesitter should start accelerating just before S/F. (but cheeky Col jumped the start early and got rid of me :D)

It would be great if we could practise a few rolling starts before quali starts, so everyone can get used to the procedure and knows what to expect.

#31 D_J

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 06:10 AM

The rolling start is sounding more and more complex to me.

It sounds sensible that no overtaking occurs until you pass the s\f line. But as Bob points out that will stretch the field alot unless we are more or less up to race speed at the s\f line. That means acceleration out of the last turn without overtaking and that spells trouble. Too slow over the s\f line and the back of the field is half a lap down halfway through the first lap.

So Im just gonna throw it out there , we start on a straight that leads into a left hander. Its like every other track we drive so is the idea of a standing start maybe worth revisiting? Shouldnt we be able to negotiate that turn and come out of T1 in a single file more or less? Its like any other race , if you take chances going into T1 and drive aggressivly it will more often than not produce an incident.

#32 Robert Fleurke

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 11:01 AM

BTW I suggest lowering the pacespeed to about 125kmh (close to 80mph), because 100mph is too close to the normal racespeed midcorner. Also lower pacespeed helps on slower ovals keeping the pack tighter. Also the Polesitter has to gradually accelerate and maintain this speed. Since we have a staggered double file pacelap, it's all about following the car in front of you. I mean odd placed cars follow eachother and the even placed cars follow eachother, but have to be aware of the cars in between on the other line, also not to pass before s/f where the race is started.

Again it would be great if we could have a couple of practise starts in the half hour leading up to quali for example.

In the end I prefer a rolling start, but if the majority thinks a standing start is safer, then that's OK with me as well. Let's be a bit flexible in order to make the right decision in the end. Alternatively we also simply could start single file with a rolling start.

Edited by Robert Fleurke, 14 September 2018 - 11:03 AM.


#33 Bo Bruce

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 11:35 AM

its getting quite late to be making decision changes.
i felt the number of initial replies leaned toward a rolling start.  we then began to fine tune that.
changing to a standing start now, to me, would only further confuse the issue -

the big question is does everyone know this discussion is even ongoing?  my guess is no-
THAT would be a good reason for a standing start!

Rob's call for practicing the rolling start is very good. again, how many would participate?
and how many would even read about it?

this type of changes is near impossible to coordinate - and why i left the option up to the league to decide.
so far, ROLLING still seems to be the preferred.

as to speed.... Rob... i'll be sending you an email shortly
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#34 snafu

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 11:36 AM

I've been dropping onto the server most nights but not seen many on, and when I've been there no one has stayed for the race. :(

So I've been preparing myself against the AI, My conclusion... This is going to be a very busy track :drive1: and no one should expect to be lapping at anywhere near their PB during the race (Or Qualifying for that matter). It's going to take a lot of cooperation if we are to get anywhere near the full grid of drivers to the finish.

TTFN
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#35 Michkov

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 03:48 PM

View PostD_J, on 14 September 2018 - 06:10 AM, said:

The rolling start is sounding more and more complex to me.

It's easy once you run through it once or twice. All you got to do is keep position to the car ahead of you. Jump on the server tomorrow prerace we are sure to do a practice start.

As for the standing start, keep in mind that we are trying to launch highly asymmetric cars. Having them rolling already helps a lot I find.
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#36 Michkov

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Posted 14 September 2018 - 03:56 PM

View PostRobert Fleurke, on 14 September 2018 - 11:01 AM, said:

BTW I suggest lowering the pacespeed to about 125kmh (close to 80mph), because 100mph is too close to the normal racespeed midcorner. Also lower pacespeed helps on slower ovals keeping the pack tighter. Also the Polesitter has to gradually accelerate and

I'm with Rob here, I even suggested going to 60MPH earlier in the week. Better slower then faster, so that the grid has enough time to form behind the leader. We dont want the back rows arriving at speed and having to slam on the brakes when getting there. The grid should be formed going into the final turn imo.
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#37 Robert Fleurke

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Posted 15 September 2018 - 05:16 AM

Last night we only tested with 2 cars, John and I, but we both agreed 80mph/128kmh is not too slow, and not too fast for the turns. Let's test it this afternoon with more guys. Bruce and I had contact about it, and the pacespeed will be announced before quali!




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