Pro Level Racing Considerations


  • Please log in to reply
11 replies to this topic

#1 Pepe Higdon

Pepe Higdon

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 898 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Daytona Beach, Florida

Posted 28 January 2020 - 10:12 AM

When Bo proposed yesterday to have both divisions race at the PRO level setting, I was enthusiastic for two reasons: 1) Allowing D2 drivers to participate at a lower skill level than their compatriots in the D1 division infantilizes them, and the more that you treat adults as children, the more like children they will tend to act; and 2) D2 drivers are not likely ever to learn how to drive a damaged car to a successful finish if they are given an unrestricted opportunity to creep back to the pits and have a fairy wave her magic wand to restore the battered car to show-room condition.

Yannick and others, while supportive of the proposal, raised the question of what effect such a change in the rules would have upon the cost of repair to damaged cars, inasmuch as the PRO level is less tolerant than the INT setting when it is time to pay the bill at the body shop. Two sets of data --- collision reports and coins gained versus coins expended --- can answer that question.

First, the collision reports from last year show that D2 drivers are 50% more likely to be involved in a collision than their D1 counterparts. That figure did not change appreciably throughout the entirety of last season.

Second, we can see by taking the coins gained by a driver (appearance, finishing, car bonus, podium, etc.) and subtracting the coins spent by that driver on damage repairs that the D2 drivers have dramatically higher income-to-expense ratios than do drivers in D1. Last season the average D1 driver netted just four coins over the course of the entire season while the average D2 driver gained 28.3 (median values are consistent with these figures). Why? It seems to me that even though a D2 driver is half-again as likely to smack his car into something or someone else, he will be saved because his INT level damage repair bill will be so much lower than that of a similarly-situated driver in D1.

My initial thought was that if everyone competed at PRO level, we could simply halve the cost of repairs for D2 drivers, but that, of course, brings us back to the tactic of babying adults all over again. Until you've stared into the mouth of the cave for a good while, it is also not immediately apparent how sensitive to subtle changes is the KOINS worksheet that Bo has devised and modified over many years. This is how the branch of modern physics known as chaos theory got started.

Your turn.   :)

Edited by Pepe Higdon, 28 January 2020 - 10:17 AM.


#2 Bo Bruce

Bo Bruce

    Senior Member

  • oAo_admin
  • 5,005 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 28 January 2020 - 12:00 PM

brilliant write Pepe!
another element of thought is that when a car is 'damaged' in D2, its not readily apparent that its handling has gone off. a driver might feel he's not doing something right.
then continue on and potentially become an obstacle (or worse) to cars that are undamaged!
even knowing when the car is damaged, to limp around back to pits could cause others to be affected, or involved in collision w/ the damaged racer!
hApPy TrAiLs

oAo League Admin:
http://oao-gpl.speedgeezers.net/start.html

#3 Claudio Pablo Navonne

Claudio Pablo Navonne

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,178 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Buenos Aires, Argentina

Posted 29 January 2020 - 10:43 AM

I agree with Pepe, besides it would add more realism to the races, it would force us to be more careful with our car and with the others on the track by not driving with a defective car to the pits to do a Shift+R. It would also save work for the race stewards because they wouldn't have to check the replay for a Shift+R.
Maybe some people should learn to use the PitPatch, but I think that is a minor difficulty and would only be necessary for those races where the full tank of fuel is not enough for the whole race.
Member of AtlasF1 GPL/NR2003/Mods/etc.

#4 snafu

snafu

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,356 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hall End England
  • Interests:GPL
    F2B (Control Line aerobatic model aircraft).
    Motorcycles
    Crown Green bowling

Posted 29 January 2020 - 12:08 PM

My thoughts were that it would if anything possibly increase the workload of the Race Stewards.

Currently D2 race incidents quite often are an inconvenience rather than race ending. (Lose 20s recovering from a spin etc).

With the increased chances of cars suffering more severe damage I would be concerned that many more protests might be raised rather than less.

Anyway that's my concern.

TTFN
John.
I started out with nothing and still have most of it left.

Fast, Cheap, Reliable. Choose any 2.

Beat it to fit, paint it to match..

1 in 4 people in the world are mentally unbalanced.
Look closely at 3 of your closest friends. If they seem OK it's probably you.

#5 GrandPrixYannick

GrandPrixYannick

    The Flying Dutchman

  • Members
  • 369 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands
  • Interests:GPL, I think?? :)

Posted 29 January 2020 - 01:10 PM

Adding to John's concerns also adding my concern, as I mentioned in the mail, some sort of recession for teams
with many damage bills resulting in higher risk of multiple teams being on the edge all the time or get stuck in the negative.

As Pepe mentioned, reducing bills for just D2 drivers is no good idea, hence why I prefer to reduce it for both D1 and D2 if possible.

Edited by GrandPrixYannick, 29 January 2020 - 01:11 PM.

"Grand Prix Legends is a drug. I am addicted to it."
- Based on a quote of Harry Schell

#6 zzbusch1

zzbusch1

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 274 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Palm Coast, FL

Posted 29 January 2020 - 03:48 PM

Maybe we could try it out for half a season?  Try Pro for the first half (or second half) and see where we all stand on changing it. It would be a good way to see how it would effect Koins, points, driving style, etc.

I don't know how long some of you have driven GPL. Most of you I know have been GPL fanatics for a long time, but I'm not sure how long some of the new people have been driving GPL. D2 was always a way to help the newcomers and less talented drivers learn how to drive GPL, and then progress to being better.

ps: I've always thought about the race strategy of loading 10-20 laps of fuel and doing a shift-r, once or twice, but I've never been fast enough to think it would work for me.
racecar is racecar spelled backward

#7 Bo Bruce

Bo Bruce

    Senior Member

  • oAo_admin
  • 5,005 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 29 January 2020 - 04:31 PM

have a look at the Damages page.
it is already fairly large - asking to have different damage tables for D1/D2 will increase  the size, and probably make it all more confusing (TL's?  me?)

the point i see was made by Pepe.. in seasons past a D1 might damage a car beyond being able to continue, at least in a safe manner- but in D2 that same damage with a driver possibly not of the same level could limp to the pits, and try again... and again... and again - EACH TIME the damage reports are counted against the overall accumulation of damages.
so while PRO might be less forgiving for an error, INT damages lets a driver make repeated errors and run up a total of damages that even tho he might finish the race, makes the car a complete write off !

Pepe/Yannick suggesting lower damage reports in my opinion has already been been modified in the lowering of some of the car costs. its a fine balance to find COST vs REPAIRS.
we've lowered some costs, that cause me some concerns that we'll see grids 1/2 lotus, but lowering damages would insure we see more Lotus!  If we drive to FINISH, and not die as so many did in the late 60's, the damage costs would be reflectively lowered on the drivers own merit.

ZZ brings up a point that won't be considered, by me, because if we do that, i still would need to modify the spreadsheets - then what? not use them the other half season?
BUT!!
i could see doing this for ONE season, and if it doesn't work to our satisfaction, return to PRO/INT racing the next season. So in a way, ZZ's suggestion is valid :)   at least that's what it made me think of ~


its not 'in stone'  (as yet its not 'at all')  but all input is welcome!
hApPy TrAiLs

oAo League Admin:
http://oao-gpl.speedgeezers.net/start.html

#8 snafu

snafu

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 1,356 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hall End England
  • Interests:GPL
    F2B (Control Line aerobatic model aircraft).
    Motorcycles
    Crown Green bowling

Posted 29 January 2020 - 05:57 PM

Possibly off topic but..
Question 1..
What about having a rethink on using Olaf's DG patch?
Question 2..
Is PRO damage with Shift-r Possible (Or INT without) when configuring an online race? - I have no knowledge of how hosting works, educate me. :)

As I said in the mail trail I'm in favour of standardising the damage levels across both divisions though do think it's a bit short notice to spring it this season. Especially considering teams who have already made their garage choices and might want to reconsider.

I do though feel that the arguement that under the current rules a D2 driver can keep limping back to the pits for endless repairs and accumulating enough damage to write the car off is although  possible it's not something I have ever seen happen. What I have seen is a driver attempt to continue to race in a Ferrari Tricycle at Montjuic several seasons ago in D1 in an attempt to recover a Koin for completing 75% of race distance and still be running at the end. (This could still happen [In either division] under the proposed rules).

My biggest worry with the proposal as it stands is we could find many D2 races finishing at least initially with very few drivers on track due to the unfamiliar increased damage and the lack of a magic bullet to get them back safely in the race, or a field of ill handling cars with drivers fighting for control and generally getting in the way of drivers who have managed to stay out of trouble.

What I would like to suggest is keep things as they are now for this season but run all oAo practice servers under PRO conditions for both divisions. Then it gives drivers the opportunity to experience the environment for a full season and recalibrate their brain for S24 (Plus it might mean we see more people practicing online).

I guess a final question from me would be. Of the D2 Drivers who do practice online do you notice more blow up's or damage during your 1st week of practice? (When the server is set to Pro damage for the D1 race). If not then I guess that shoots most of my arguements out of the water.

TTFN
John.
I started out with nothing and still have most of it left.

Fast, Cheap, Reliable. Choose any 2.

Beat it to fit, paint it to match..

1 in 4 people in the world are mentally unbalanced.
Look closely at 3 of your closest friends. If they seem OK it's probably you.

#9 Bo Bruce

Bo Bruce

    Senior Member

  • oAo_admin
  • 5,005 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 29 January 2020 - 07:35 PM

wish the forum made replying to quotes easier :PRO
but here goes:

FROM JOHN
QUESTION 1..
WHAT ABOUT HAVING A RETHINK ON USING OLAF'S DG PATCH?

>> me
we don't have everyone using iGor at present. some can't run all the mods due to computer limitations in place, and i don't want to further fracture our group but adding another layer.


QUESTION 2..
IS PRO DAMAGE WITH SHIFT-R POSSIBLE (OR INT WITHOUT) WHEN CONFIGURING AN ONLINE RACE? - I HAVE NO KNOWLEDGE OF HOW HOSTING WORKS, EDUCATE ME. :)

>> me
not possible


AS I SAID IN THE MAIL TRAIL I'M IN FAVOUR OF STANDARDISING THE DAMAGE LEVELS ACROSS BOTH DIVISIONS THOUGH DO THINK IT'S A BIT SHORT NOTICE TO SPRING IT THIS SEASON. ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING TEAMS WHO HAVE ALREADY MADE THEIR GARAGE CHOICES AND MIGHT WANT TO RECONSIDER.

>>me
still waiting for 3 teams to submit car choices, i've no problem getting changes at this point.

WHAT I HAVE SEEN IS A DRIVER ATTEMPT TO CONTINUE TO RACE IN A FERRARI TRICYCLE AT MONTJUIC SEVERAL SEASONS AGO IN D1 IN AN ATTEMPT TO RECOVER A KOIN FOR COMPLETING 75% OF RACE DISTANCE AND STILL BE RUNNING AT THE END. (THIS COULD STILL HAPPEN [IN EITHER DIVISION] UNDER THE PROPOSED RULES).


>>me
there is a rule that prohibits doing more than finishing the lap you are on if reduced to 3 wheels.


MY BIGGEST WORRY WITH THE PROPOSAL AS IT STANDS IS WE COULD FIND MANY D2 RACES FINISHING AT LEAST INITIALLY WITH VERY FEW DRIVERS ON TRACK DUE TO THE UNFAMILIAR INCREASED DAMAGE AND THE LACK OF A MAGIC BULLET TO GET THEM BACK SAFELY IN THE RACE, OR A FIELD OF ILL HANDLING CARS WITH DRIVERS FIGHTING FOR CONTROL AND GENERALLY GETTING IN THE WAY OF DRIVERS WHO HAVE MANAGED TO STAY OUT OF TROUBLE.

>>me
can't argue the logic of this, except to say those drivers are the same obstacles now w/ D2 INT. and to repeat my reasoning, my opinion is Sh-R is a crutch, allowing a 'safety net' mentality... improve your driving (not racing craft) and everything good will follow.  for the 'few' doing multiple sh-Rs are very much in the minority, yes they might very well limp a few more laps, but are more likely to suffer the consequences of initial damages and find themselves as dnf's.  <<< to me, that frustration (?) will lead to better applied practices to NOT suffer damages in future races.

WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO SUGGEST IS KEEP THINGS AS THEY ARE NOW FOR THIS SEASON BUT RUN ALL OAO PRACTICE SERVERS UNDER PRO CONDITIONS FOR BOTH DIVISIONS. THEN IT GIVES DRIVERS THE OPPORTUNITY TO EXPERIENCE THE ENVIRONMENT FOR A FULL SEASON AND RECALIBRATE THEIR BRAIN FOR S24 (PLUS IT MIGHT MEAN WE SEE MORE PEOPLE PRACTICING ONLINE).

>>me
fair suggestion - tho - i don't think it would lead to more ppl online practicing.  but i'd really like to see it in place sooner rather than later. it would have been ideal to run the 55s mini season as PRO.


I GUESS A FINAL QUESTION FROM ME WOULD BE. OF THE D2 DRIVERS WHO DO PRACTICE ONLINE DO YOU NOTICE MORE BLOW UP'S OR DAMAGE DURING YOUR 1ST WEEK OF PRACTICE? (WHEN THE SERVER IS SET TO PRO DAMAGE FOR THE D1 RACE). IF NOT THEN I GUESS THAT SHOOTS MOST OF MY ARGUEMENTS OUT OF THE WATER.

>>me
i can only speak for myself regarding practice, but 90% of my practice on and off line is PRO and no, i don't see a significant increase in engine blows (now i've jinxed myself)   -  i DO get frustrated in both on/off practice in PRO that i can't sh-R at that spot and carry on.... having to instead <esc>  and start again - but you know what happens then??? RIGHT! i proceed with more caution :D
hApPy TrAiLs

oAo League Admin:
http://oao-gpl.speedgeezers.net/start.html

#10 Pepe Higdon

Pepe Higdon

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 898 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Daytona Beach, Florida

Posted 29 January 2020 - 09:09 PM

When Bo raised the idea of requiring D2 drivers to run at the PRO level, my first hypothesis was that it would wreak havoc on the D2 drivers' coins. I think that has been proven true by the data in my first post above that shows how much more expensive it is to repair PRO damage than INT damage. It certainly was the case on my team last year. Bo and I were bringing home the bacon every other week while our poor D1 teammates were routinely filing for bankruptcy. After playing around with some possible adjustments, I would guess that simply cutting the current cost of repairs by one-third (and leaving the current car purchase price as is) would take care of most of the teams' worries about expenses.

But what about income? If D2 drivers are kicked up from relatively forgiving INT level racing into the PRO clouds, might not they suffer a big hit in DNFs, and with that a significant loss of coins? I spent some time looking into the starts and finishes of both divisions in the last four years. It seems as if there's no measurable difference between finishing percentages in the two divisions. D1 drivers have finished 62.4% of their races compared to 64.9% for their little brothers. But even that small difference is a bit misleading when you recall that the then-classed G3 drivers stepping up in D1 in 2016 started 31 races and didn't finish a single one! Remove that pile of DNFs and the D1 finishing number from 2016-2019 goes up to 65.6%.

So is there likely to be a measurable effect on DNFs if the D2 division were to race at an increased level of difficulty? The numbers I've seen suggest not. The drivers who appear to have gotten themselves into trouble --- with DNFs or serious repair bills or both --- are disproportionately from the G7 and G3 ranks (as the ranking system currently is constituted). My supposition is that G8 and G4 drivers didn't achieve those ranks by blind luck and the G5/G6 and G1/G2 drivers are pretty much resigned to their serf status. But the G7/G3 guys still have hopes for fame and glory and are willing to take risks that simply scare the shit out of the rest of us. These views, I add, are my own and not necessarily those of oAo, Speedgeezers, or the International Monetary Fund.

Speaking anecdotally, racing at PRO level probably won't affect me or others at or near my level. I've had 12 DNFs in 59 starts: one by running out of gas at Sachsenring, four by self-inflicted wounds, and seven by being knocked out via a collision with another driver (and which in each such case I righteously blame the other son-of-a-bitch).  :)

#11 D_J

D_J

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 260 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Norway

Posted 16 February 2020 - 02:35 AM

View Postsnafu, on 29 January 2020 - 05:57 PM, said:

Question 1..
What about having a rethink on using Olaf's DG patch?


As a dgp enthusiast I would highly recommend this suggestion somewhere down the line. The wear feature can be adjusted to be more or less neutralized in 60 min of racing. That adds a repair option and dirty tires effect when in the grass or gravel. Two excellent add-ons for any online gpl league.

In-race repair could add a great dimension to oAo. F.ex , last year Dan was taken out on Portland and lost a front wheel through no fault of his own. He used a shift + r he had in reserve and could continue but the lotus was damaged beyond any point of repairing it in terms of cost. If in-race repair counts as a full restore that overrides the damage report then he could have gotten himself to the pits and repaired the car. This would be an in-race option for teams who are short on koins and could in general add a great tactical dimension. Its also a nice lifeline if you get some bogus gpl damage like a valve popped etc.

Edited by D_J, 16 February 2020 - 02:36 AM.


#12 mcmirande

mcmirande

    Senior Member

  • Members
  • 2,334 posts

Posted 16 February 2020 - 03:08 AM

Hi guys!

Just to say that I think that statistics from past seasons don't necessarily applies to the new rules. People drive different if can or cannot use shift-r, even unconsciously. I'm sure D2 drivers will have less collisions now, in PRO mode.

Maybe, to do statistics would be good to use the data from f1legends, that raced always in pro mode with the 67's. With the same rules in all their "divisions". The single concern is that their servers were filled differently in each race, as if they had "dynamic divisions".

Cheers, Marcos
Posted Image Posted Image




Sim Racing Links