Gears And Stuff


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#1 Javelin

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Posted 05 June 2006 - 07:23 AM

HI,

Have got gpl to work  :)
It looks and sounds great.

Now the hard bit  :(  driving!

I've studied the first lesson at Silverstone and I must say first off, what a superb piece of work that is  :D  

Lap times are currently around 1.44 with manual box and 1.38 with auto box but I know where I can find extra time so quite pleased with it

However I am have a great deal of problems with the gears or to be more exact lifting off on and off the throttle when changing.
I think much of it is to do with my pedals which are the old sidewinder pedals I bought about 5 years ago.

Also my paddle gear switches work 8 out of 10 times resulting in quite frequent blown engines.

Now given that new equipment should be on my priority list, it is currently way down on "her who must be obayed" list of things we need.  :(

Is it a ADC requirement to use manual gears?
In GTR they allow auto box and I was wondering if this applies to GPL as well.

Given that this is a pretty basic question is it possible to confirm the other basic game set up.
Standard chassis?
Realistic damage?
Braking help off?
Thottle help off?

What is linear and non linear steering?

On GEM,
What is the field of view degrees for?
Where should the Player and Core ini be set?
and the rasteriser is all rocket science to me  :(

I feel sure these questions are already answered somewhere but not fallen over them yet.

(Just did a 1.31.84  :D)

Edited by Javelin, 05 June 2006 - 08:08 AM.

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#2 Javelin

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Posted 05 June 2006 - 05:41 PM

Whilst we are on the subject of noob questions,

I noticed that you are allowed to shift R at any time,
I see that if I do this the tyres seem to reset as well,
does this work like a tyre change, new tyres but cold?

Also does it replenish the fuel you started with?
if so in a 20 odd lap race what do you run with, 7 laps worth?

Lastly (for now  :blink: ) is there any other "in race" information other than the lap board?
Can't get used to being told where I was two laps back

Any answers to any of the above questions would be really useful  :please:
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#3 Jim Carvalho

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Posted 05 June 2006 - 10:25 PM

Javelin,

I'll try to get started with a few answers and stand to be corrected by those who may know better. :) I -- and most of us -- understand your financial situation quite clearly.

You don't need to use a manual box. Most of us here like some degree of "realism" and prefer manual -- even though most of us use paddle shifters :blink: -- and manual is supposed to be faster in GPL. Considering your pedals and shifting problems, automatic is faster than blown engines. :)

Use the Standard chassis. The races are run with one of the middle damage settings. When first learning, you might choose No Damage while you practice to keep from wearing out the R-key, as so many of us have. :D I practice with Full Damage to keep myself honest. I think most everyone uses no throttle or braking help.

Linear and non-linear steering may depend on our wheel brand and type. Can't help you much there.

GEM help anyone?

Congrats on the 1:31.84. You're definitely heading in the right direction.

Shift-R gives you new, cold tires and beginning fuel level from the setup screen. Most if us -- perhaps foolishly and mistakenly! -- start with enough fuel to make it all the way to the end of the race. Some tracks I'm tempted to start with a single lap of fuel.

The pit board is all that came with GPL and that's all the drivers had in 1967. Many of us use a program called Pribluda that gives constant up-to-the-second information. Look around; you'll find some threads on it.

Hope this is a helpful start.

Jim
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#4 John Ollis

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Posted 06 June 2006 - 01:29 AM

Hi Javelin,

Welcome to the addiction :)

I'll fill in some more detail, but to answer all your questions fully would take an even longer posting than I'm about to write! :) So, best to just refer you to some other sources of info, which I'll do towards the end.

As Jim says, it's quicker to use manual gears once you have practiced and mastered them, but if you're having trouble with your pedals and paddle shifters this will be difficult or impossible, so you may be forced to stay with auto shifting for the moment. I'm pretty sure the rules allow their use (don't remember reading anything to the contrary), but most people don't because of the speed penalty and the tendency of the auto to get into the wrong gear at some tracks, especially where selection of a higher gear is preferable to limit wheelspin.

Throttle help works like a traction control in a road car, limiting wheelspin. Its use is generally not recommended because you'll effectively have to learn to drive all over again when you eventually decide to drop it.

Braking help acts like an anti-lock braking system in a road car. It's easier to drop than throttle help after using it for a while.

Both throttle and braking help limit the performance available from the car, so you will be forced to drop them eventually in your search for ultimate speed.

Linear/non-linear: Non-linear applies a scaling effect to the steering that increases the steering rate the further you move from the centre position toward the extremes of lock (full left and right). Effectively the steering allows finer control around the centre (helping stability on straights taken at high speed), but still allows you to get around tighter corners as you move toward the extremes of lock. However, use of non-linear tends to make it harder to recover the car, using so-called 'opposite lock', when the back end 'steps out'; in these situations the quicker initial response of linear steering is preferable. So, this setting is a little like driver aids - using non-linear may help you initially, but you'll tend to move it more and more to full linear in the search for ultimate control.

GEM:
- Field of view: Bigger numbers allow you to see more of the world around you through the window of the computer screen (wider angle view), smaller numbers reduce what you see (narrower angle view). A wider angle view also increases the sense of speed, narrower reduces it.
- player.ini and core.ini. If you are referring to the drop down lists, I believe the first one adjusts a number of graphic related options to set the overall load on the computer (full is most demanding and light is least) - useful if you have a slow computer. However, be aware there are a whole array of graphic options to set in-game to tune performance - GEM is just offering an easy generic way to adjust them, but won't necessarily give optimal results. core.ini settings appear to relate to the setting of force feedback latency - again, this may help (assuming you are using force feedback) to optimise performance depending on the speed of your computer.
- Rasteriser. Is the software 'driver' used by your video card. Nowadays, most people run DirectX, but some people get smoother results with OpenGL (if their card supports it well, but many cards don't). 3Dfx and Rendition relate to very old graphic cards from round about the time GPL was originally released. Software rendering - don't even think about it (gives very poor results)! :)

Shift/R: Yup, back on cold tyres and whatever fuel load you specified in your race setup (maximum load if you left that as default). So, to be avoided if poss, but inevitable if you've really crunched the car with damage settings on.

Extra in-race info. Best solution is Pribluda (assuming you run the DirectX video driver). You can find it here:
http://rugpl.simulat...ocs/34418210503

OK, hope that gets you started. Here are the other links I promised you...

Bob Simpson's GPL FAQ:
http://forum.rscnet....ad.php?t=105748

Stefan Roess's GPL Info and FAQ:
http://www.stefanroe...e/page1a_e.html

Race Sim Central (RSC) GPL Forums:
http://forum.rscnet....isplay.php?f=36

And, of course the ADC forums. Remember to select the Show All option in the search settings down toward the bottom of each forum summary page then click the Go button to search - if you don't do that you'll only see threads that had posting activity in the last 30 days. That trick is even more important in RSC (use the 'From The' setting toward the bottom of RSC forum summary pages) where there is masses of historical posting.

Best of luck and see you on-track some time :)

John.

P.S. Well done with the 1:31.84 - that is well on the way to rapid. :clap:

Edited by John Ollis, 06 June 2006 - 01:36 AM.


#5 Javelin

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Posted 06 June 2006 - 03:54 AM

Many thanks guys,

The Pribluda utility is great and very useful.

I noticed that on Bernd's training lap he hardly slides at all but on another replay I downloaded of a 1.25 lap the guy seemed to be sideways most of the time.
As a rule are we to say that sliding is slow and is to be avoided or is it a vital technique?

Plus when I compare my lap with Bernds he has so much more speed down the final straight and over the start finish line and given that we are braking in the same place I can't work out how he achieves it :(

I had a quick play with braking help on and you have to brake at least two car lengths earlier so its off for good.

I guess my biggest issue is getting the power down without spinning the tyres, apart from being smooth with the throttle are there any tricks in the setup I could employ to help?

Oh and,

Installed igor, I've never played on GPL multiplayer so a quick runthough of what I have to do would be helpful and does anyone practice online or is it an off line activity and you only meet up for an event?

Sorry to be a pain
:sorry:

Edited by Javelin, 06 June 2006 - 02:52 PM.

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#6 BurtAugust

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Posted 06 June 2006 - 03:03 PM

I am assuming the wheelspin is happeing in the lower gears (1st & 2nd).  The 67's and 69's all have enough power to light up the tires in 1st.  
Restraint with the throttle and short-shifting are the most effective means of reducing this.  You have to shift up or reduce the amount of throttle as the motor comes on the cam with increased revs.  

I have found that having more power lock in the diff, with a lower ramp angle or more clutches helps.  This doesn't prevent wheelspin but it does let you give a little more throttle before the tires spin.  With less lock one tire will spin first.  More lock does not necessarily make the car easier to drive, in fact it is often harder because both tires will eventually break loose and this is worse than just the inside tire spinning.  It is often faster though.  

The 85 ramp that is the in many of the default and other setups really doesn't give a lot of lock.  This means less throttle steer and more mid-corner and exit push.  It is a little easier to drive though as with the lower angle ramps (more lock) you have to be significantly smoother in applying the throttle if the wheel is still turned.  

I guess softening the rear suspension could help too but this will change the balance in other ways and certainly won't eliminate the problem.

#7 John Ollis

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Posted 06 June 2006 - 04:02 PM

Hi again,

Not a pain... loads of questions needing answers when first starting out with GPL :)

I wouldn't say sideways driving is essential. In fact in the 65 cars, it will be slower than a clean, tidy line. In the 67 cars, you can get away with sideways more and some people prefer that style. Bernd is a very tidy driver and one of the fastest in the club, as you have seen.

Speed down the straights is the key to fast times at Silverstone, as with any track that has long straights. It's achieved by maximising your exit speed from the preceding corner. An advantage of even one MPH at corner exit will gain a significant amount of time by the end of the straight. Take a close look in Replay Analyzer at Bernd's corner exit speeds versus yours and I think you will find he is a little quicker. You'll then see an ever widening speed differential as you both progress down the straight. Corner exit speed tends to be compromised if you are struggling to control the car through the corner. That will make you late in getting back on the throttle; Bernd is almost certainly consistently quicker back on the throttle than you are. Unfortunately Replay Analyzer cannot show you the throttle inputs, as they are not saved by GPL in the replay files. However, you can roughly deduce what they're likely to be from the acceleration of the cars. In general, it's better to be slightly slower on corner entry than faster - the old 'slow in, fast out' rule.

iGOR is fairly straightforward once you have it set up properly. If you are seeing a race list (top window) you are most of the way there - if not, you need to edit the file C:\Program Files\GPLSecrets\iGOR\iGOR.ini (after closing iGOR) and change the line RaceListServers entry to read:
IP = gplrank.info

While you are in there, also change the IRCServer line in the IRCSettings section to read:
IRCServer = "b0rk.de.eu.shadowworld.net"

That's a zero, not letter O in the first part. This change makes chat startup much quicker and more reliable.

After that, make sure you have applied the recommended ADC multiplayer settings in the C:\Program Files\SIERRA\gpl\Core.ini file. Look here for the details:
http://adc.speedgeez...unication_setup

With these settings you should be able to connect to most servers shown by iGOR, though some may be passworded. For the ADC server, Dave should have sent you details of the password when you joined.

Location for practice depends on what you are practicing. If you are just learning a track and trying to find your best times, most people would do that off-line. For practicing your race craft, you'll want to do that on-line, although you could also race the AI (human opponents are more interesting and varied though).

John.

#8 Bernd Nowak

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 02:05 AM

I hope that all goes well and I find a bit time to try to do some faster runs in another setup this night at Silverstone.
The default setup I used is ok for 1.28.xx times. I can imagine if you train hard enough maybe for something 1.27.xx. But I don't think that it's a setup for a 1.25.

In general the most important aspect of driving the historic cars fast is to have very few wheel corrections to be fast.

So even the fast guys turn the car with brake/throttle and try to minimize the corrections in car angle after you reach the apex to give the max speed out of a corner.

I don't know if the guys remember but it's not important how late you brake. More important is how fast you can accelerate out of the corner or better when it's safe to accelerate again.
Silverstone is a good place to try to find a key to this main important thing.
Another good one is the 2nd Lesmo at Monza. It's so vital to settle the car for this turn so that you can easily accelerate there.
If you watch replays and use some setups from the aliens you will notice that this 2nd gear turn (you would drive it in 2nd gear) mostly will be driven in 3rd from most aliens. You can study what I mean with try to set up the right angle of the car and accelerate.

As I was a newbie I had tried to be as late on the brakes as some of the real fast guys but I have learnt that it's important but the more important thing is to find your personal exit angle which allows the maximum acceleration early enough without spinning :)
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#9 Javelin

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 12:16 PM

I compared my good laps to Berndís laps from the training replay using GPL replay analyser and the first thing I noticed was how much I was losing in pure speed due to the slow auto gear change.

So I dismantled the paddle switches, cleaned them up and they now appear to work 99% of the time rather than the 60% I had before.
The lap times came down immediately by a second or so, plus a quick shift saves a spin or slide but itís a bit of a steep learning curve.

My lap of 1.31.8 seems to be a bit of a rogue as my average is 1.35  or 1.34 with  the occasional 1.33.
The Pribluda utility does say that I can do 1.31ís but I never seem to be able to run four ďGreenĒ sectors in a row.

Itís a bit ironic that the secret to going fast is going slow.
But how slow and how do you know when you are slow enough?

The analysis also showed that Bernd was far slower into the bends than I so I slowed down and Iíve just checked and still I seem to be entering the corners too fast.
Itís a very strange feeling to slow down that much in order to go fast.

Also it seems that the position of the slowest point on the bend is critical as my slow point is always too late.

Identifying the braking points is pretty simple and getting back on the power is also reasonably obvious but the one I canít get right is when to ease off the brakes.

Is there a marker or are there any tips to help me judge when to get off the brakes?
Do you glance at the speed or just rely on listening to the engine?

Having said all that about going slow, on the final corner into the s/f straight, I canít get anywhere near Berndís speed of 110 or there about, I just seem to slide at anything above 90mph.
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#10 Bernd Nowak

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 12:36 PM

Javelin, on Jun 7 2006, 08:16 PM, said:

Do you glance at the speed or just rely on listening to the engine?
I don't know how fast slow I am :D and not listening to the engine. For me the key is to brake at my marker and still be on the brakes with a little bit throttle when turning in. When the car has settled in the turn I let the brake ease off completly and concentrate on the apex and maintain momentum with little throttle until I have the feeling that the car points only slightly to one side of the track so that I can give full throttle.

You're right about the speed in the corners. During this first lesson I learnt that the major difference lies in the word 'smooth' .
If like you told you're faster then me I would bet that you loose a lot of time trying to tame those non winged monsters in those turns what means you gain on the beginning of the turn but loose all later.
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#11 Bernd Nowak

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 01:19 PM

Just some first try to get a little bit faster at Silverstone. It's done with an Andi Wilke setup which I have attached.
A 1.26.84 and if interested it seems like I can do a 1.26.4x or lower but long time since I tried to race the Eagle :D
And about sliding. I don't think that you need to slide to be fast here. I would say that I hate it because I feel like loosing time then.

But Javelin, those 67 cars are a total difference to todays cars. I tried a trainer of rFactor (to studfy the replay viewer) and this was like driving on rails :)

I remember from GTR that braking in those cars was more easy as a beginner. Those 67 cars seems not to stop :D

But it's good to see interest and that other try to help too.

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#12 Javelin

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Posted 07 June 2006 - 08:21 PM

Hmmm, I don't think I'm quite up to that setup yet, I spent most of the time looking at where I'd been when I tried it :blink:

I also tried a couple of other setups I found on the net,
How do these people brake?
Whenever I try and brake the car weaves all over the place.
The bias is between 48 and 52, I cant work out how you can use this bias without crashing off.
I seem to need 56 or 57, what am I doing wrong?

Discovered a couple of other things tonight.

Having never used Manual gears before today I haddn't realised just how much engine braking there is.
Is there a penalty for using engine braking a lot, like wearing out the box quicker?

The other thing is there seems to be a physical groove round the track that when you get the braking and line right the car seems to turn in on the right line all by it'self.

Lastly (for now) My best sector times, according to Pribluda are,
Sector 1 = 21.80
Sector 2 = 22.90
Sector 3 = 25.55
Sector 4 = 20.76

Which of these needs the most work?
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#13 John Ollis

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 12:42 AM

Brake bias: Faster setups tend to have brake balance set somewhere around 50:50, but as you see they are unstable under braking. Faster drivers tend to manage that by keeping a small amount of throttle (about 10%) under braking, which keeps the differential locked and the instability at bay. You might want to experiment with that later on, but adjusting the bias as you have done is probably the better option for the moment, while you perfect other aspects of your technique.

Engine braking: No penalty other than risking damaging the engine through over-revving if you change down too soon, and the possibility of locking the rear brakes (some people ease the brakes slightly when changing down to avoid that possibility).

Sector times: Relative to world records, you are about +1.50, +1.81, +1.96 and +1.52 in the sectors.

#14 Bernd Nowak

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 01:55 AM

Javelin,
don't take the latest setup and replay to seriously. But I wante to check if I go faster I would slide more. But to be honest all sliding laps had been crap.

Those Alien setups need throttle during braking which is the reason why in GPL I mostly have a little throttle while braking.

Thanks John for checking the sector times. But you shouldn't worry about sector times at the moment.

An easy approach at your current state is the following advise from me:

Try to find an easy setup and stay with it at least till you reach the green zone (like the default setup which is good enough for significant faster laps).
An easy setup is one which feels comfortable at your current state. Use the long straights and braking zones to adjust your brake bias. I would suggest trying to experiment with something around 57. Try to avoid locking of the tyres by adjusting your brake behavior (amount of brake pressure) and the brake bias.
If your satisfied with the brake settings concentrate on mastering corners in GPL. Silverstone is a good track for this as it's a flat track so no weight distribution will make it harder then it should be.

Corners in GPL are mostly all the same. Slow in, fast out. And slow is slow :)

And to add something positive: If your average is around 1.34 this is ok. But I would say that you have to fight against the wish for getting it green against consistency.

Both work together. If you're consistent you will get faster. If you're fast you might be consistent.

True Aliens like Andy and Greger are fast and consistent :D

I know that I have to get my next lesson ready but time is running away. Sorry for this. But it makes a lot of fun to try to give some experience to you so try to get the most out of us.
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#15 John Ollis

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 07:07 AM

Yup, consistency is the key. It's still my biggest problem; I can put reasonably quick laps together, but they're still 1 in 10 events, or even 1 in 100 at the harder tracks :weeping:

Javelin, if you're looking for comfortable, stable setups for the 67 cars, I'd suggest giving Feiner Kerl's a go if you haven't done so already. Take a look in this post:
http://forums.speedg...38

John.

#16 Javelin

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 07:02 PM

Thanks again,

The Feiner Kerl's web site is very impressive.
Shame he does not do a lotus setup.

Talking of which I've been trying out the Lotus today and although I cant get much quicker (1.32.xx) I'm finding it a little easier to put in consistant 1.33's compared to the Eagle where my consistancy is around 1.35.
Am I wise to pick the Lotus or should I stick with the Eagle?

Also, (you just knew there was an also  :) )

Is the reason that the  :alien: drivers have their brake balance further back results in more stopping power?
If so is the trick to ease the balance back as I gain more experience.

Cheers

Mike

Edited by Javelin, 08 June 2006 - 07:05 PM.

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#17 Bernd Nowak

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Posted 09 June 2006 - 12:58 AM

Mike, the Lotus is a fine car like all the others.
All have pros and cons and just try them all.

As for the brake balance. It's a personal thingy as it depends on the setup of the car and your equipment.
There have been 'Aliens' around with just a joystick (Keir :D  ) like Wolfgang Woeger.
There's no 'You must use a brake bias < 50'
Even with Paul Jackson's setups who is using 49 or lower I switch back to 52 mostly. It's like real life. Notice it, try it  and adjust to your own taste :)

The only common rules are slow in, fast out and if you're racing: consistency

How you archive this is your own way.
But from my experience it was in this sequence:

1. Driving GPL and noticed that I was allways beaten by the AI resulting in frustration (default Papy AI adjust to every progress you made). This was along with trouble staying on the tarmac.
2. The game went back on the shelf
3. Rediscovered the game, installed it and was struggling again with point 1.
4. Google & the Internet brought me to this community and I found out that this is a hard simulation but others had the same trouble. So I downloaded some replays and setups and was slightly frustrated because progress was very slow in the beginning.
5. GPL Rank has been discovered and I had my first goal but quickly realised that beating the Papy replay times isn't just as easy as it looks so I decided to try to concentrate on driving consistent and join the online world of GPL which led to the ADC :)
6. Descovering how much fun online driving is but how hard it is to jump on the podium. Thanks Rob, Markus, Paolo, Frank and many others to show me my limits but also to wake up those evil 'I want to beat you' feelings.
7. Suddenly you make a great step forward but you realise that's not the end. :)
8. You get stuck with great people and fantastic races
9. I tried other simulations but no other could archive this sense of atmosphere until now. All fine but they lck to much of the atmosphere that I'm stuck with GPL.
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#18 John Ollis

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Posted 09 June 2006 - 01:11 AM

Hi Mike,

Hehe, you will become known as the 'also man' at this rate :)

Yes, Feiner doesn't appear to like the Lotus :)

The Eagle and the Lotus are probably the two most difficult of the 67 cars to master. The Lotus is generally reckoned to be the trickiest, but the Eagle is no pushover either; it gets quite twitchy when putting the power back in. However, they are also the two quickest cars. The Eagle has the edge on very fast tracks like Spa, but the Lotus will leave everything in its wake on twisty tracks.

But there are definitely advantages to driving the more benign chassis. The Cooper is actually reckoned to be one of the best cars when learning and, depending on the track, it can be very competitive as it handles very well. I'm also a fan of the Ferrari: it's quite quick but is also nice and predictable. The Brabham is also quite fast and nimble, but has some handling quirks that take some getting used to.

The Honda and BRM are both just plain slow (mainly due to excess weight and in the case of the Honda excess drag) and have to be driven very hard indeed to get half decent times. Having said that, if you can learn to do that (maybe once you feel comfortable handling the other cars) you will almost certainly be much quicker when you step back into the fast cars. You'll see GPLers advising to learn to drive the slow cars fast if you want to become really quick.

Overall, I'd recommend trying all the cars eventually, as you will learn a lot from studying their differences and mastering all of them.

Brake balance: yes, I think it's a question of stopping power and yes, gradually ease the brake balance back to the middle as you get better and feel comfortable doing so.

In time, you'll probably want to try out the 65 and 69 mods as well. In many ways they are easier to drive than the 67s, primarily because of their better low speed grip (the 67 cars are not realistic in that respect). Opinion is divided on whether it's best to start off in the 67s or the 65s/69s. Personally I'm a great fan of the 65s, but not everyone shares that view: they have much lower power and are very unforgiving to even minor mistakes in line. The 69s have similar power to the 67s but their wings allow them to hurtle round bends at speeds the 67s can only dream about, while the 67s are actually a bit quicker on the straights.

John.

P.S. I'd strongly urge you to get a GPL Rank account at some point if you don't yet have one. Chasing the ranks was what finally ignited my current state of GPL addiction, but I also found it helped to focus my learning. But make sure to do plenty of on-line racing as well, once you are comfortable with your driving. Like Bernd, I have tried other sims, but there are so many things about GPL that put it streets ahead for me. I really can't see me giving it up until I croak, especially in view of the mod treasures yet to come (66s, 67 Sports, 55s, Titans etc etc).

#19 catty

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Posted 09 June 2006 - 02:32 AM

Mike.
        Silverstone is a good track to learn new techniques on as exit speed from corners is essential there.  Balance of the car in the corners is essential for fast times but that will only come with practice and plenty of it I might add.
On setups I would try GH (Greggor Huttu) setups not the GH2 ones as they may be a bit "Alien" for your liking just the GH ones. They are mostly 85/45/4 which sould be fairly stable for you. The brake bias is set at approx 54 which if too twitchy under braking you can set a bit higher. When you are comfortable with your braking you can set the bias lower e.g. 50 - 51 but you will then need 5% throttle when braking just to keep the car steady and facing forwards. I wish you good luck and I'm sure that with plenty of practice you will break the benchmark at Silverstone fairly quickly.

All the Best
Trevor

#20 John Ollis

John Ollis

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Posted 09 June 2006 - 07:24 AM

Mike, just to add to Trevor's comments...

Both Greger Huttu's and Roland Ehnstrom's setups are worth a try if you fancy something a little faster (but also a little less stable) than Feiner's. As Trevor says, avoid the  :alien: -tuned GH2s and RE2s unless you're feeling really brave :)  My earlier posting link has links to all of them. Try them all and see which you like best.

John.




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